Hero's firing a HMG.

Hubbs5

Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
647
Reaction score
48
Location
Greeley, CO
Country
llUnited States
If two hero's are stacked together with a HMG can they fire it normally with a -2 DRM?
 

Robin Reeve

φιλέω ASL אני אוהב
Staff member
Moderator
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
17,633
Reaction score
3,000
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
After A15.24, I would say yes :" This DRM is cumulative with that of any applicable leadership DRM/additional heroes present in the same attack."
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
10,459
Reaction score
3,767
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
If two hero's are stacked together with a HMG can they fire it normally with a -2 DRM?
Crew the MG with a hero and a 9-2 or a 10-3 for some real excitement. -- jim
 

Honosbinda

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Messages
874
Reaction score
251
Location
Eastbourne Sussex UK
Country
ll
Crew the MG with a hero and a 9-2 or a 10-3 for some real excitement. -- jim
Yeah did that once during a Code of Bushido playtest years ago -with a 10-2 and 2 generated heroes manning a .50 cal as I recall. KIA'd an entire company of Japanese trying to pile into the open out of a cave complex, their last ditch effort to win the scenario. It was epic.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,852
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
Crew the MG with a hero and a 9-2 or a 10-3 for some real excitement. -- jim
As per A9.12, "If a Leader fires/uses a SW-MG/any-other-SW (either singly or in combination with another SMC), he loses any leadership he may have otherwise exerted during that fire phase, but the SW is exempt from Cowering.".
Add in A15.23, a single hero fires a SW as if manned by 2 SMC but with a + 1 DRM. If within normal range his Heroic -1 DRM also applies giving a nett 0 DRM.

Assume a Hero and a 9-2 Leader
Hero+leader firing: DRM = -1 heroic but no leader DRM, nett DRM = -1
Hero fires, 9-2 directs: DRM = 0 (-1+1) heroic DRM, leader -2, nett DRM = -2 (no better than HS or Crew manning)

Now assume 2 Heroes and a 9-2 Leader
2 Heroes fire, 9-2 directs: DRM = 2 x -1 Heroic, leader -2, nett DRM = -4

In all the above cases No Cowering applies and the Heroic DRM applies only within the normal range of the SW or the Hero's 4 hex normal range, whichever is greater (A15.24), beyond that the above DRMs become 0, -1, -2 respectively.

This can make an interesting FP & DRM meta game. Let's say we have a Soviet 4-5-8, a 4-10 MMG, 2 Heroes and a 9-2 leader. Two cases:

Case A: 458 takes the MMG, Heroes FG with 458+MMG if within range, all directed by leader
At 11-20 hexes: 2 FP, -2 DRM.
At 9-10 hexes: 4 (MMG) + 2 (458) = 6 FP, - 2 DRM.
At 6-8 hexes: 2 Heroes give 1 additional FP, 7 FP -2 DRM
At 5 hexes: 9 FP, -2 DRM
At 2-4 hexes: 10 FP, -4 DRM
At 1 hex: 20 FP, -4 DRM

Case B: Heroes take the MG, the 458 FG with the MG, leader directs all.
At 11-20 hexes: 2 FP, -2 DRM
At 6-10 hexes: 4 (MMG) + 2 (456) = 6, DRM = -4 (the Heroes normal range is now that of the MMG)
At 2-5 hexes: FP = 8, DRM = -4
At 1 hex: FP = 16, DRM = -4

So case B is equal or better than case A at all ranges using the IFT with the exception of 1 Hex range. Case A is always superior at 1 Hex, though there could be a small wrinkle. That wrinkle is ROF. If the MMG retains ROF, under case A the nett DRM is -2, whilst under case B the heroic DRMs still apply for a nett DRM of -4, both with FP of 4.

Using the IIFT, the extra 1 FP of A is more than compensated by the extra -2 DRM for 5-8 hexes. For 1-5 hexes, you can get 4/2 extra FP (at 1/2-4 hex) for case A over B with the same -4 DRM for both. But the potential DRM boost with ROF still applies.

So with the 9-2, 4-5-8, MMG and 2 Heroes, unless your only target is next door, give the Heroes the MMG.

Of course the ridiculous Death Star would be a 10-3 leader, 33 Heroes and 16 .50" HMG for 129 FP with a DRM of -36 at 2-4 hexes or 128 FP, DRM -35 at 5-16 hexes, all with no stacking penalties! :D:mad::facepalm:
 
Last edited:

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
17,739
Reaction score
4,346
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
As per A9.12, "If a Leader fires/uses a SW-MG/any-other-SW (either singly or in combination with another SMC), he loses any leadership he may have otherwise exerted during that fire phase, but the SW is exempt from Cowering.".
Add in A15.23, a single hero fires a SW as if manned by 2 SMC but with a + 1 DRM. If within normal range his Heroic -1 DRM also applies giving a nett 0 DRM.

Assume a Hero and a 9-2 Leader
Hero+leader firing: DRM = -1 heroic but no leader DRM, nett DRM = -1
Hero fires, 9-2 directs: DRM = 0 (-1+1) heroic DRM, leader -2, nett DRM = -2 (no better than HS or Crew manning)
Well a Hero probably has a higher morale than a HS/Crew - on the other hand a HS/Crew can lay down a Fire Lane and use Subsequent First Fire.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,852
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
Well a Hero probably has a higher morale than a HS/Crew - on the other hand a HS/Crew can lay down a Fire Lane and use Subsequent First Fire.
I was really only concerned with output, but you're right about Heroes having greater resilience.

Infantry can use both Subsequent First Fire (A8.3) and Fire Lanes (A9.22) and Infantry is defined as all SMC and MMC on foot (Index), not Cavalry or PRC.

So unless I am ignorant of some errata, missed some rules clause or Q&A then SMC can do both. But I could well be wrong.
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
17,739
Reaction score
4,346
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
I was really only concerned with output, but you're right about Heroes having greater resilience.

Infantry can use both Subsequent First Fire (A8.3) and Fire Lanes (A9.22) and Infantry is defined as all SMC and MMC on foot (Index), not Cavalry or PRC.

So unless I am ignorant of some errata, missed some rules clause or Q&A then SMC can do both. But I could well be wrong.
A single SMC manning a MG can't use SFF since it can't use Sustained Fire.

A9.3:
"...Sustained Fire cannot be used by a vehicular MG [EXC: MA, as per 8.4], nor if firing as ordnance, nor by a MG fired by a lone SMC...."

And there is Q&A (and Tips From The Trenches, IIRC) to the effect that a Hero alone manning a MG can't lay down a Fire Lane.
 

Philippe D.

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
1,686
Reaction score
819
Location
Bordeaux
Country
llFrance
That's why you should always get your heroes in pairs when trying to maximize the efficiency of your .50 cal MGs.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,852
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
A single SMC manning a MG can't use SFF since it can't use Sustained Fire.

A9.3:
"...Sustained Fire cannot be used by a vehicular MG [EXC: MA, as per 8.4], nor if firing as ordnance, nor by a MG fired by a lone SMC...."

And there is Q&A (and Tips From The Trenches, IIRC) to the effect that a Hero alone manning a MG can't lay down a Fire Lane.
OK, thanks for the A9.3 correction. While that nobbles the single Hero for SFF, the double Hero is unaffected. Not that it is too much of a consideration as I usually break SFF MG.

I had a search through your most recently published Perry Sez Q&A (V 23) looking for every occurrence of "hero" and could not find any mention of hero and fire lanes.
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
17,739
Reaction score
4,346
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
OK, thanks for the A9.3 correction. While that nobbles the single Hero for SFF, the double Hero is unaffected. Not that it is too much of a consideration as I usually break SFF MG.

I had a search through your most recently published Perry Sez Q&A (V 23) looking for every occurrence of "hero" and could not find any mention of hero and fire lanes.
It is an older one.

Index & A9.22 Is a SW MG `fully manned' by
a) a non-Heroic SMC,
A. No.
b) a Heroic SMC, or
A. No.
c) two SMCs
A. Yes.
d) and thus in Good Order (if otherwise in Good
Order)? Assuming such a MG is capable of at
least 2FP in its Normal Range, can it be used to
declare a Fire Lane (if otherwise able to do so)?
A. Only the last. [Letter48]

48) Wayne Hadady to Perry Cocke and response, posted to ASLML, 5 March 2000

Tips From The Trenches:
ASL Journal 11 , page 58.

Note that even though a lone Heroic SMC may fire a MG at full FP (A15.23), he cannot lay down a Fire Lane since a MG requires at
least two SMC to be fully manned. Nor can he use a MG as Sustained Fire (A9.3).
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,852
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
ASLML is not something I ever accessed.

J11, I have.

Thanks.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,168
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
ASLML is not something I ever accessed.

J11, I have.
If you are not downloading the "Combined ASL Q&A file consisting of the Perry Sez from GameSquad file and the two Scott Romanowski files", that is the file you should be using. It has the q&a that Klas quoted.

JR
 
Top