Height Advantage TEM vs. Descending Infantry

Bill Kohler

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If a firer in U8 is shooting at MPh Infantry moving from W7 into X6, there is no Height Advantage.
What about a firer in U8 shooting at MPh Infantry moving from X6 into W7?
(E.g., does the LOS from U8 end at the W7 center dot? What about for a Snap Shot?)

B10.31 HEIGHT ADVANTAGE: Any unit in a hex receiving Direct Fire from a lower elevation is entitled to a +1 TEM, provided that unit is not eligible to receive any other positive TEM or CE DRM other than those caused by LOS Hindrances [EXC: a moving unit being fired on by Defensive First Fire is not eligible for the Height Advantage TEM if in entering the target hex it crosses a Crest Line through the same hexside that is intersected by the firer’s LOS].
 
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Bill Kohler

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If there were, for argument's sake, a small stone building in W7, but shifted to the left such that the LOS from U8 to the entire W7-X6 hexside were clear. And if the firer in U8 declared a Snap Shot at an Infantry unit assault moving from X6 down into W7, would Height Advantage TEM apply to that shot?
"if in entering the target hex it crosses a Crest Line through the same hexside that is intersected by the firer’s LOS"
Comparing a "4 up 3" IFT shot, say, or a "2 flat" Snap Shot.

(BTW I'm not trying to be difficult--I think I'm missing something regarding HA.)
 
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Robin Reeve

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A8.15 : "The FFNAM/FFMO DRM cannot apply (even if the entire length of the hexside is along Open Ground), nor does the TEM of most other terrain in the target hex".

Height Advantage is a TEM:
A10.31 HEIGHT ADVANTAGE: Any unit in a hex receiving Direct Fire from a lower elevation is entitled to a +1 TEM...
So it never applies to a Snap Shot.
 

Bill Kohler

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Thank you for the reply, Robin.

I take the phrase "nor does the TEM of most other terrain in the target hex" to simply be saying that Snap Shots are taken at hexsides, and that most types of TEM (buildings, grain, brush, etc.) are usually not present at the hexside that one typically chooses to shoot at with Snap Shots.
("Most", being not explicitly defined, is of no use IMO in excluding specific types of TEM.)

The issue, I think, all comes down to this sentence from B10.31: [EXC: a moving unit being fired on by Defensive First Fire is not eligible for the Height Advantage TEM if in entering the target hex it crosses a Crest Line through the same hexside that is intersected by the firer’s LOS].

(a) in entering the target hex: which the hypothetical unit does across hexside X6-W7.
(b) it crosses a Crest Line: which it does, the crest line between the X6 center dot and the W7 center dot.
(c) through the same hexside that is intersected by the firer’s LOS: the hypothetical unit crosses the X6-W7 hexside. And when shot at by a Snap Shot, the LOS intersects this exact same hexside.

So I think that, strictly by the wording of the above EXC, HA TEM should not apply to the indicated Snap Shot.
 
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MajorDomo

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Looks like a continuous slope to me either way for non snap shot.
 

Bill Kohler

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Well remembered, Klas.

EX: If hexes G7, H7, and I7 comprised a Level 1 hill, both Snap Shots would be subject to Height Advantage TEM.
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Though in neither firing geometry is the 4-6-7 crossing a crest line. :(

But in the Snap Shot case I stipulated above, would the EXC of B10.31 negate Height Advantage TEM? As I read the EXC, I believe it should negate the HA TEM.

However, upon searching in the ASLRB I found this remark in the Comprehensive Rout Example: the +1 Height Advantage TEM does not apply when the LOS crosses the Crest Line traversed by the moving unit.
This is a different phrasing--and if accurate--would not negate the HA TEM for the Snap Shot I've stipulated. So I'll try to treat HA TEM questions in terms of this phrasing.
 
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Bill Kohler

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Looks like a continuous slope to me either way for non snap shot.
B.5 CONTINUOUS SLOPE: A Continuous Slope is a change in elevation such that, in each hex successively crossed by the LOS, the elevation changes by one level in a continuous gradient. All rules pertaining to same-level LOS also apply to Continuous Slope LOS [EXC: walls/hedges and AFV/wrecks (D9.4)] even though the latter term is not mentioned, although Height Advantage is unaffected.

Continuous Slope doesn't appear to affect HA either way.
 

Robin Reeve

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NRBH, but I think HA can apply to a Snap Shot. IIRC, the Example even mentions it.
The last sentence of the example indeed states : "If hexes G7, H7, and I7 comprised a Level 1 hill, both Snap Shots would be subject to Height Advantage TEM."
Doesn't it directly contradict the rule that A8.15 ("nor does the TEM of most other
terrain in the target hex" - and HA is not cited as an exception)?

If the example is right, what prevents from applying any TEM to a Snap Shot?

Which should be corrected/amended: the rule or the example?
 

Bill Kohler

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Robin: I think the phrase "nor does the TEM of most other terrain in the target hex" is simply an observation, not a proscription--an observation that a LOS drawn to a hexside not to a hex center dot will often miss much of the terrain in the interior of the target hex.
 

Robin Reeve

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When do you choose what TEM applies?
I don't see an observation here.
It is a rule.
 

Bill Kohler

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When do you choose what TEM applies?
Per the rules that apply to that terrain type.
For buildings, follow B23.
For height advantage, follow B10.31.
For Brush, B12.
For Woods, B13.
For Inherent Terrain, B.6.
E.g., just as one always does.

It doesn't define the "most other terrain" term. If it's meant as a rule, one can't possibly know which other terrain types it's referring to, for it doesn't list which terrain types are included in the "most other terrain" term.

It would be like our country's IRS (our much-beloved taxing body) saying "most citizens have to pay taxes". Somewhere the IRS would then have to specify who is "most citizens".
 
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Robin Reeve

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The rule states that TEM don't apply most of the time.
That is the problem.
There is only the example which contradicts the rule by applying the HA TEM.
ASL has very precise rules, and leaves no place for fuzzy concepts.
 

Bill Kohler

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In summary . . .
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Q: Does an Infantry unit assault moving from X6 into W7 lose Height Advantage TEM when fired upon from U8?
A: No.

Q: Why not?
A: Because the B10.31 EXC isn't met:
[EXC: a moving unit being fired on by Defensive First Fire is not eligible for the Height Advantage TEM if in entering the target hex it crosses a Crest Line through the same hexside that is intersected by the firer’s LOS]
The W7-X6 crest line is not the crest line that potentially grants Height Advantage during this move. The V7-W7 crest line is the crest line that potentially grants Height Advantage, and so the V7-W7 hexside is the one to which the EXC refers.

This reasoning IMO is also why a Snap Shot taken at the W7-X6 hexside faces Height Advantage TEM.
 
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Houtje

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The rule states that TEM don't apply most of the time.
That is the problem.
There is only the example which contradicts the rule by applying the HA TEM.
ASL has very precise rules, and leaves no place for fuzzy concepts.
I don't think the example contradicts the rules: the applicability of HA is perfectly compatible with the not-applying of 'the TEM of most other terrain in the target hex', just like 'I like ASL' is perfectly compatible with 'most people do not like ASL'. I.o.w. I agree with Bill that 'most' implies that some TEM can possibly apply at least some of the time, otherwise the term should have been left out. You say that HA is not mentioned as one of the exceptions, but the relevant phrase does not, importantly, include the term 'EXC':

"however a wall/hedge/SMOKE/rubble hexside/spine of a hex being entered/exited can modify a Snap Shot if crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside)"

The lack of 'EXC' means, I think, that the cases listed after 'however' are NOT exceptions to 'TEM in the target hex does not apply': the cases seem to concern (1) hexside TEM (not TEM in the target hex), and (2) SMOKE, which is not a TEM at all so cannot be part of a list of exceptions to a rule about TEM.
 

Robin Reeve

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Thanks @Houtje .
As much as the examples have authority, I still am annoyed that the HA TEM exception is burried in an example.
The hexside TEM and SMOKE DRM are evoked in the rule.
Would HA be the only in-hex DRM to be an exception ? If it is the case, why ?
 

Houtje

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Good questions! And I agree that without the example actually mentioning HA, it would be very easy to get wrong. Paragraph could have been written more clearly.
 

klasmalmstrom

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There was a 1st Edition Q/A about the EX - so it seems the answer was edited into the EX in the 2nd Edition.


A8.15 If hexes G7, H7, and I7 in the illustration comprised a Level 1 hill, would both Snap Shots
described in the example be subject to Height Advantage TEM?
A. Yes. [An92; An95w; An96]

That being said, the Snap Shot rule as a whole could do with some updates/clarifications (I think it is on the To Do list, but then again, so it a bunch of other stuff :) ).
 

Bill Kohler

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After one has wrestled with and finally untangled an ASL rule enough to grok it, hints that it might soon be re-written does--I confess--stir up a bit of angst, especially if the rewrite is going to change how the rule is played or dramatically increase the verbiage, as has happened with one or two others.

That said, if changes clarify rules without changing too much how people play them, and are brief, that's good!
 
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