Hedge/Wall on EmRR/Hillock Hexside LOS

[DVexile]

So on the HT map for HiF there are hedges along the hexsides of some of the EmRR hexes. For example along X4/Y5:



How is LOS handled across such a hexside? Over in B9.62 it says treat a hillside wall/hedge as being at the higher elevation. This isn't strictly a hillside of course. But under those rules it would seem no LOS from Y6 to X3 since the hedge would thus be on the EmRR/Hillock and block LOS more than one hex past it.

If we presume the instead the hedge is on the lower level that still brings up another uncertainty. Does that hedge count as being crossed when viewed from the EmRR such that there would be no LOS from Y6 to W2 since the LOS would have crossed two hedges and W2 is not adjacent to the second hedge? Or do we ignore the first hedge at X4/Y5 because it on the edge of the EmRR and is thus just part of that 1/2 level (this would seem like having ones cake and eating it too)?

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I don't have time for full research, but does B32.21 affect your reasoning? "If the height of the other terrain in the hex is ≤ the height of the RR (e.g., an EmRR or ElRR in a brush hex), the other terrain has no effect on LOS into the RR hex or to LOS that crossed the RR depiction; ...".

 

[DVexile]

I don't have time for full research, but does B32.21 affect your reasoning? "21 If the height of the other terrain in the hex is ≤ the height of the RR (e.g., an EmRR or ElRR in a brush hex), the other terrain has no effect on LOS into the RR hex or to LOS that crossed the RR depiction; ...".

Ah, excellent! I missed that as I wandered off in to Hillock stuff too early. Thanks!

Alright, so the hedge is not intended to be up on the EmRR so that means LOS from Y6 to X3 for sure.

Now for LOS from Y6 to W2 (did the LOS cross one or two hedges along that LOS) things seem a bit more ambiguous. The hedge is part of two hexes actually (since a hex is defined to contain its hexsides and vertices). So does the phrase "the other terrain has no effect on LOS" in B32.21 mean the hedge doesn't count when deciding how many hedges were crossed or is the fact the hedge is also part of X4 mean it does?

 

[Stewart]

I don't have time for full research, but does B32.21 affect your reasoning? "21 If the height of the other terrain in the hex is ≤ the height of the RR (e.g., an EmRR or ElRR in a brush hex), the other terrain has no effect on LOS into the RR hex or to LOS that crossed the RR depiction; ...".

Doesn't this refer to the terrain IN the RR hex?

It looks to me that the hedge is a HillsideHedge by definition.


A Hillside wall/hedge is one which lies
along a hexside that is common to two adjacent hexes with different Base
Levels, with none of the lower Base-Level’s terrain appearing between the
wall/hedge depiction and the higher Base-Level’s terrain depiction.

But F6.411 is the key I think.

Such a viewing unit also has a LOS
past the first wall/hedge whose topmost height along that LOS equals
the viewing unit’s elevation—and can also see along that same LOS
past a second such wall/hedge but only to Locations that are behind
but adjacent to this second wall/hedge, and beyond such Locations to
≥ the viewing unit’s elevation.

 

[Doug Leslie]

I don’t think that B23.21 can apply here. It applies to hillside hexes and a hillock is not a hillside. If that were not the case, where exactly does the hedge lie in relation to the hillock’s topmost height? There is no hillock terrain depiction as such to work with. A hillock rises gradually to level 1/2, starting from level 0. The hedge is at level 0 where the hillock starts to rise. That is consistent with B23.21.
It therefore follows that normal hillock LOS rules apply. A viewing unit in Y6 cannot see as far as W2 since the LOS crosses two hedge hexsides and ends in X3 per F6.411.

 

[Jwil2020]

Interesting (if not confusing) thread. Another good example of why there should be a separate rule for EmRR instead of trying to make the Hillock rules apply. A case of trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, IMHO.

 

[Eagle4ty]

I don’t think that B23.21 can apply here. It applies to hillside hexes and a hillock is not a hillside. If that were not the case, where exactly does the hedge lie in relation to the hillock’s topmost height? There is no hillock terrain depiction as such to work with. A hillock rises gradually to level 1/2, starting from level 0. The hedge is at level 0 where the hillock starts to rise. That is consistent with B23.21.
It therefore follows that normal hillock LOS rules apply. A viewing unit in Y6 cannot see as far as W2 since the LOS crosses two hedge hexsides and ends in X3 per F6.411.

And a unit ON the EmRR has no elevation advantage over the hedges.

 

[Larry]

See Jim Bishop's article ...

Embankment Railroads – The Bishop Says

Views: 80A lot of people have been playing Hatten in Flames, a super fun campaign game published by Multi-Man Publishing and designed by Andy Rogers. A lot of these players soon turn to ASL forums looking for help on how to play the Embanked Railroad (EmRR) running down the southern side of the...

jekl.com

The EmRR is treated as a hillock and has some play over walls and hedges:

Units on a Hillock may also see over any wall/hedge whose top-most height is strictly less than the height of the Hillock. Units on a Hillock also have a LOS over the first wall/hedge whose topmost height is equal to the Hillock’s along that LOS. They may also see past the second such wall/hedge but only to units adjacent to the second wall/hedge.

I recommend Jim's article ... and his webpage in general.

 

[Jwil2020]

I recommend Jim's article ... and his webpage in general.

Agree. Anyone playing HiF should check this out. His illustrated examples are worth a thousand words, especially since he uses the HF map for his diagrams.

 

[Stewart]

I don’t think that B23.21 can apply here. It applies to hillside hexes and a hillock is not a hillside. If that were not the case, where exactly does the hedge lie in relation to the hillock’s topmost height? There is no hillock terrain depiction as such to work with. A hillock rises gradually to level 1/2, starting from level 0. The hedge is at level 0 where the hillock starts to rise. That is consistent with B23.21.
It therefore follows that normal hillock LOS rules apply. A viewing unit in Y6 cannot see as far as W2 since the LOS crosses two hedge hexsides and ends in X3 per F6.411.

Different base levels is the criteria...
are the base levels different?

 

[Doug Leslie]

I think that B23.212 is superseded by_

B32.2 OTHER TERRAIN:13 Although the RR hexes on overlays provided in DOOMED BATTALIONS contain no other terrain [EXC: potential RR Crossings, 32.4], other terrain types (woods, grain, brush, etc.) could potentially exist in a RR hex (by SSR or via future overlays). Except for GLRR hexes, this additional terrain would not be at the base Level of the hex (i.e., not at the same level as the RR), but rather would be considered to be at the level that the RR hex itself rises from (for EmRR and ElRR) or falls from (for SuRR) [EXC: bridges].

A wall/hedge is a type of terrain, so its base level is half a level below the RR.

 

[DVexile]

Thanks everyone for the references and the discussion!

In our game we've decided to play it as the hedge base is at level 0 as B32.2 indicates that's where terrain in the hex should rise from. This seems pretty clear from the rules.

We have also decided to count it as one wall/hedge crossed for units that are on the EmRR. This seems a bit less certain. An immediate wrinkle would be what about a unit that is in the EmRR hex that the hedge borders? Would seem a bit odd to count it as one of the hedges crossed in that case, but for more distant EmRR it would seem more sensible.

 

[Doug Leslie]

Thanks everyone for the references and the discussion!

In our game we've decided to play it as the hedge base is at level 0 as B32.2 indicates that's where terrain in the hex should rise from. This seems pretty clear from the rules.

We have also decided to count it as one wall/hedge crossed for units that are on the EmRR. This seems a bit less certain. An immediate wrinkle would be what about a unit that is in the EmRR hex that the hedge borders? Would seem a bit odd to count it as one of the hedges crossed in that case, but for more distant EmRR it would seem more sensible.

I think that you have to go by the wording of F6.411-

6.411 A unit (whether entrenched/Emplaced or not) on a hillock has a LOS past all walls/hedges whose topmost height along that LOS is < the viewing unit's elevation. Such a viewing unit also has a LOS past the first wall/hedge whose topmost height along that LOS equals the viewing unit's elevation—and can also see along that same LOS past a second such wall/hedge but only to Locations that are behind but adjacent to this second wall/hedge, and beyond such Locations to ≥ the viewing unit's elevation. For a Dune Crest half-level obstacle, see 7.512.

To me, this means that every hedge hexside counts irrespective of whether the viewing unit is ADJACENT to the first one.

 

[DVexile]

I think that you have to go by the wording of F6.411-

6.411 A unit (whether entrenched/Emplaced or not) on a hillock has a LOS past all walls/hedges whose topmost height along that LOS is < the viewing unit's elevation. Such a viewing unit also has a LOS past the first wall/hedge whose topmost height along that LOS equals the viewing unit's elevation—and can also see along that same LOS past a second such wall/hedge but only to Locations that are behind but adjacent to this second wall/hedge, and beyond such Locations to ≥ the viewing unit's elevation. For a Dune Crest half-level obstacle, see 7.512.

To me, this means that every hedge hexside counts irrespective of whether the viewing unit is ADJACENT to the first one.

Yes, but A9.2 also says that walls and hedges are not half-level obstacles to LOS if the wall/hedge is part of the viewing/target hex. So that's the bit of ambiguity. We could fall back on "whenever a seeming contradiction appears between rule cases, the higher alpha-numeric rule case always takes precedence" which would indicate F6.411's lack of the exclusion for hexsides that are part of the veiwing/target hex takes precedence and so that would count as the first wall. Similarly that means B32.2's description of terrain trumps the lower numbered hillside wall/hedge rule (B9.6).

Fortunately I feel like it is unlikely in our game that anyone is going to go stand in that particular hex, so we can kind of ignore that wrinkle.

 

[Doug Leslie]

Yes, but A9.2 also says that walls and hedges are not half-level obstacles to LOS if the wall/hedge is part of the viewing/target hex. So that's the bit of ambiguity. We could fall back on "whenever a seeming contradiction appears between rule cases, the higher alpha-numeric rule case always takes precedence" which would indicate F6.411's lack of the exclusion for hexsides that are part of the veiwing/target hex takes precedence and so that would count as the first wall. Similarly that means B32.2's description of terrain trumps the lower numbered hillside wall/hedge rule (B9.6).

Fortunately I feel like it is unlikely in our game that anyone is going to go stand in that particular hex, so we can kind of ignore that wrinkle.

It certainly isn't particularly clear. I really hate the "higher numbered rule takes precedence" rule! Might be worth a question to MMP.

 

[Jwil2020]

I really hate the "higher numbered rule takes precedence" rule!

+1

 

[Stewart]

I think that you have to go by the wording of F6.411-

6.411 A unit ...

To me, this means that every hedge hexside counts irrespective of whether the viewing unit is ADJACENT to the first one.

B9.2 LOS: Wall and hedge hexsides are Half-Level obstacles to same-level
LOS (A6.21) unless the wall/hedge hexside is part of the viewing/target hex. (elevation not considered)

Therefore, the w/h is not considered an obstacle to LOS whatsoever.
The F rule is considering only walls that are potential obstacles....the 9.2 rule removes the hexside from that premise...it is still a w/h, but not an obstacle. the obstacle component is what we are interested in.

 

[Doug Leslie]

B9.2 LOS: Wall and hedge hexsides are Half-Level obstacles to same-level
LOS (A6.21) unless the wall/hedge hexside is part of the viewing/target hex. (elevation not considered)

Therefore, the w/h is not considered an obstacle to LOS whatsoever.
The F rule is considering only walls that are potential obstacles....the 9.2 rule removes the hexside from that premise...it is still a w/h, but not an obstacle. the obstacle component is what we are interested in.

The counter-argument to this is to ask yourself what elevation a unit on the hillock is at and the applicability of B9.35.

9.35 A wall/hedge which lies along a hexside common to two adjacent hexes with different Base Levels is on the lower of the two Base Levels if some of the lower Base-Level's terrain is depicted between the wall/hedge depiction and the crest line (e.g., 3U4-V4). If not, the wall/hedge is a Hillside wall/hedge (9.6). A wall/hedge provides no TEM or HD status to a target Location that is at a different elevation than the base elevation of the wall/hedge.

If we are proceeding on the basis that the unit on the hillock is at level 1/2 and the hedge is at level 0, I don't think that it receives any TEM from fire traced across the hedge hexside, whereas a unit on the opposite of the hedge in the adjacent location would. It would therefore follow that the hexside has to count as the first hexside across LOS is traced for the purposes of F6.411.