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Tuomo

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Run into the PF limit in a scenario?

Never seen it happen. Would be freaking awesome to suddenly have the German infantry rewind back in time to early 1943 when PFs were still on the drawing board.
 

buser333

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Run into the PF limit in a scenario?

Never seen it happen. Would be freaking awesome to suddenly have the German infantry rewind back in time to early 1943 when PFs were still on the drawing board.
I can't say that I have either, and I've played my fair share of games.
 

Tuomo

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I can't say that I have either, and I've played my fair share of games.
Well, between your data point and mine, I'll go ahead and say it's never happened.

And if it did... is that really a good solution, to have PFs be NA for the remainder of the game? At the end of the game, when things are probably pretty tense, and the whole of the game prior has had PFs inevitably play a role in things? It seems... really wrong, is what it seems. I mean, sure, as the German gets down toward the end, they're gonna start husbanding their shots, but still, c'mon, that hard limit is pretty wrong.

I'd much rather see it replaced with an extra +1 drm to the PF Availability dr. Heck, have that kick in for every multiple of squad-equivalents that the German starts with. First 2N are free, next 2N+1 to 3N give you a +1, etc.

Solving problems that have never come up. I like it.
 

STAVKA

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Run into the PF limit in a scenario?
Yes, played SP11 Pommerian Tigers.

Attacked with my Germans on both sides of the middle road, on the left flank several of my squads encountered a Stalin Tank (IS2-m), that had taken up a bold position with hardly any other support (speed bump), of my 24 Panzerfausts (Rng 3) the foot soldiers fired 22 PF trying to Faust the beast.

Hit the Russian AFV 3 times in the hull but the hits only bounced off (TK#5) and the fourth PF hit the tank in the turret (TK#11), but of course it is a dud (now we laugh our guts out), enter a squad into CC found the ATMM roll 12, the squad K/reduced and the HS finished off by the CMG/RMG.

After 17 PF misses and 4 hits, PF nr 22 aimed and fired, hit the AFV a fifth time, but in hull (I thought) rolled DR 4, No CS.

The last two PF I fired vs Russian infantry in buildings or behind walls on the right flank.
 
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von Marwitz

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I think I may have managed it, but I have no clear recollection, so I may be mistaken. I dimly remember it was a scenario set in 1943 with not much infantry around and thus the number of Panzerfausts being comparably small.

In the scenario I have finished today set in 1945, I have used 6 out of 20 and gacked a couple of more attempts. This felt like quite a lot. I did not score a single hit with any of them, though... But there was this vehicular crew which survived its almost impregnable tank being taken out by a CH. Boy, that crew was pissed and angry! It ran after the the tank which killed its own, finally advanced into CC and slammed an ATMM on its adversary killing it in turn - with no crew survival. The loader was overheard to be mumbling something like: "I don't get mad. I get even..."

von Marwitz
 
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Actionjick

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I was never fully convinced that PF should be an inherent weapon but that's a matter for a different thread.🤔
 

Spencer Armstrong

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I don't think I've ever actually hit the limit, but I've gotten close enough in a late '43 scenario where the limit became a consideration as to whether I took a PF shot.
 

bprobst

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It's most likely to happen in some small scenario, especially if the scenario is set late 1943. Might also happen in a vehicle-only scenario where a surviving German crew might have one or two PFs in his pocket.

Conversely it might also happen in a large scenario where there is no shortage of targets and heaps of infantry shooting the things all over the place.

Of course the probability is that it won't happen because in most scenarios the Germans have a "sufficient" quantity and their opponent will probably be doing his utmost to deny opportunities for their use.

I think my "personal best" was a game of HG15 "King Darges" where the Germans begin with 33 PF and I finished the game with < 20.
 

The Purist

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...And if it did... is that really a good solution, to have PFs be NA for the remainder of the game? At the end of the game, when things are probably pretty tense, and the whole of the game prior has had PFs inevitably play a role in things? It seems... really wrong, is what it seems. I mean, sure, as the German gets down toward the end, they're gonna start husbanding their shots, but still, c'mon, that hard limit is pretty wrong.....
I've never run out but then PFs (and ATMM) are grossly over represented in ASL. This is likely due to perception they were used effectively by Volksturm boys and old men in the slaughter vast swathes of Red Army tanks. This simply isn't supported by the facts. A 1944 OoB of 10 squads with 15 PFs is probably over representation.

The Germans fired huge numbers of PFs for every kill obtained. What is not shown in ASL is that a PF required a good deal of special training to use safely and effectively (as well as to survive). As the number of properly trained German troops declined the rate of wastage (misses) shot through the roof.

For example, German records for Jan to Apr 1944 on the eastern front showed a total of 520 tanks killed by PF, PSK, ATMM, and other handheld hollow charge weapons or AT mines. Of these 264 were killed by the PF (50.8%)

Approx another 256 were killed by:

Panzerschreks - 86 (16.7%)
ATMM - 65 (12.8%)
Grenade (bundles) - 21 (4.0%)
Anti-tank Mines - 73 (15.%)
Sturmpistole - 10 (0.2%)

While specific details are lacking, in the four month period the PF killed about 3.2% of the total tank kills claimed (8148 w/ known cause) on the entire front (counting guns 75mm and larger) for the expenditure of a whopping ~684,500 PFs fired*.

This raw data would suggest that it took roughly 2593 PFs fired per kill (German records are not perfect but...). Note that hits that were not "flush" on the armour tended to results in duds or imperfectly shaped detonations and failed penetrations. Even if one discounts defective rounds, or those used against bunkers, building etc., the kills per shot ratio is terrible (even if the numbers are off by 50%, they are still awful). It should also be noted that hits beyond 40-50 meters were extremely rare.

With nearly 8.3 million produced (~425,000 rejected due to production flaws), their use in ASL would have them kill the entire Allied and Russian tank fleets many time over with the current availability, usage and TH table rules (especially beyond 50 meters). These were weapons of desperation but in the game we tend to stalk tanks like rabbits (especially in 1945 when they are available on base dr 1-4).

Here are a few sources:

Hahn, Fritz: Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945
Fleischer, Wolfgang: Panzerfaust and other German Infantry Anti-Tank Weapons
Germany and the Second World War. Volume vol 2.
Das Deutsche Reich & der Zweite Weltkrieg. Band 5 / 2.

*Note that total German expenditure of PFs in on the eastern front in 1944 exceeded 2 million.
 
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Tuomo

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Approx another 256 were killed by:

Panzerschreks - 86 (16.7%)
ATMM - 65 (12.8%)
Grenade (bundles) - 21 (4.0%)
Anti-tank Mines - 73 (15.%)
Sturmpistole - 10 (0.2%)
What, no Cellars?

Judging from my experience, half the Cellars in Greater Pomerania were bursting to full with wrecked AFVs.
 

Actionjick

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I've never run out but then PFs (and ATMM) are grossly over represented in ASL. This is likely due to perception they were used effectively by Volksturm boys and old men in the slaughter vast swathes of Red Army tanks. This simply isn't supported by the facts. A 1944 OoB of 10 squads with 15 PFs is probably over representation.

The Germans fired huge numbers of PFs for every kill obtained. What is not shown in ASL is that a PF required a good deal of special training to use safely and effectively (as well as to survive). As the number of properly trained German troops declined the rate of wastage (misses) shot through the roof.

For example, German records for Jan to Apr 1944 on the eastern front showed a total of 520 tanks killed by PF, PSK, ATMM, and other handheld hollow charge weapons or AT mines. Of these 264 were killed by the PF (50.8%)

Approx another 256 were killed by:

Panzerschreks - 86 (16.7%)
ATMM - 65 (12.8%)
Grenade (bundles) - 21 (4.0%)
Anti-tank Mines - 73 (15.%)
Sturmpistole - 10 (0.2%)

While specific details are lacking, in the four month period the PF killed about 3.2% of the total tank kills claimed (8148 w/ known cause) on the entire front (counting guns 75mm and larger) for the expenditure of a whopping ~684,500 PFs fired*.

This raw data would suggest that it took roughly 2593 PFs fired per kill (German records are not perfect but...). Note that hits that were not "flush" on the armour tended to results in duds or imperfectly shaped detonations and failed penetrations. Even if one discounts defective rounds, or those used against bunkers, building etc., the kills per shot ratio is terrible (even if the numbers are off by 50%, they are still awful). It should also be noted that hits beyond 40-50 meters were extremely rare.

With nearly 8.3 million produced (~425,000 rejected due to production flaws), their use in ASL would have them kill the entire Allied and Russian tank fleets many time over with the current availability, usage and TH table rules (especially beyond 50 meters). These were weapons of desperation but in the game we tend to stalk tanks like rabbits (especially in 1945 when they are available on base dr 1-4).

Here are a few sources:

Hahn, Fritz: Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945
Fleischer, Wolfgang: Panzerfaust and other German Infantry Anti-Tank Weapons
Germany and the Second World War. Volume vol 2.
Das Deutsche Reich & der Zweite Weltkrieg. Band 5 / 2.

*Note that total German expenditure of PFs in on the eastern front in 1944 exceeded 2 million.
Thanks for some great info!!! I was looking at some basic numbers but this is far beyond what I had found! Good stuff.
 

Actionjick

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Sturmpistole - 10 (0.2%)

Where's the ASL rule and counter for that I wonder!
No counter, it's an inherent weapon. Check the errata under " how many inherent weapons does it take to break a German soldier's back". 🤔😉🤣🤣🤣

Sorry. A pet peeve of mine.🙄
 
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