Have You Ever (v2)

Actionjick

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
2,347
Reaction score
1,462
Country
llUnited States
That has to be one of the (many) great things about ASL - it's ability to mirror the ABSURDITY of life. That's something that most games just can't capture.
Very nice and accurate observations.
 
Reactions: Del

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
12,336
Reaction score
6,536
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
I ‘magically’ transformed a pair of small ? counters to a pair of big ? counters and ‘drove’ that towards the other guy’s sniper.
Hm, can one do that?

One can have a 5/8" Dummy and pretend to be a Jeep (i.e. Truck) in one turn and a Sherman (i.e. fully tracked vehicle) in the next and move the Dummy accordingly - provided it remains out of enemy LOS throughout.

But I am not sure if it is possible to switch the size of Dummy Counters during the game (i.e. between 1/2" and 5/8"). By gut feeling without having double-checked the rules, I'd say you can't.

If so, then the above Dummy Jeep/Sherman sleaze could spread like COVID.

von Marwitz
 

Actionjick

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
2,347
Reaction score
1,462
Country
llUnited States
Hm, can one do that?

One can have a 5/8" Dummy and pretend to be a Jeep (i.e. Truck) in one turn and a Sherman (i.e. fully tracked vehicle) in the next and move the Dummy accordingly - provided it remains out of enemy LOS throughout.

But I am not sure if it is possible to switch the size of Dummy Counters during the game (i.e. between 1/2" and 5/8"). By gut feeling without having double-checked the rules, I'd say you can't.

If so, then the above Dummy Jeep/Sherman sleaze could spread like COVID.

von Marwitz
I don't buy either of these premises. I referenced your example from the Perry Sez Q+A thread in the 5/8" Dummy stack thread I started. If you could please explain your reasoning as to why you think your example is correct, how you arrived at the MP allowance and switching between " vehicle " types as legitimate and legal I for one would be very interested. 🤔

Thanks!!🤗🤗
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
12,336
Reaction score
6,536
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
I don't buy either of these premises. I referenced your example from the Perry Sez Q+A thread in the 5/8" Dummy stack thread I started. If you could please explain your reasoning as to why you think your example is correct, how you arrived at the MP allowance and switching between " vehicle " types as legitimate and legal I for one would be very interested. 🤔

Thanks!!🤗🤗
"A12.11 KNOWN/DUMMY ENEMY UNIT: ... A ⅝" Dummy stack can claim to be an Emplaced Gun (without Emplacement TEM) or a vehicle but, except for moving, is treated like a ½-inch Dummy stack for concealment loss. ..."

"... Dummy stacks can be created only during initial setup and among OB-designated "?" reinforcements during their initial turn of entry. ..."


Per the first quote of A12.11 a 5/8" Dummy can claim to be a vehicle. As it is not treated like a 1/2" Dummy for purposes of moving, this can only mean that is it treated as a vehicle for such purposes. As 'fake DRs' are N/A for Dummies, I guess it could not act as a Pushed Gun because this would require a 'fake' Manhandling DR. Claiming to be 'a' vehicle does not limit this claim to a particular type of vehicle IHMO, as long as it behaves in a way any vehicle could conceivably behave [EXC: as no fake DRs are allowed, it probably could not pose as a vehicle with red MP numbers after stopping and then wanting to resume movement again, as this would require a 'fake Mechanical Reliability DR.]. Just as 'a' 1/2" Dummy can act as a MMC or SMC (or possessed SW for that matter).

Per the second quote of A12.11, the creation of a Dummy stack is limited to the initial setup or the initial turn of entry if part of reinforcements. You can create Dummies either in the 1/2" or the 5/8" variant at these specified times only (regardless of which type of 1/2" unit or 5/8" unit they elect to act later). For that reason, I don't think that you can switch 1/2" to 5/8" Dummies or vice versa once they have been initially created.

von Marwitz
 

aiabx

Same as it ever was
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
1,249
Reaction score
658
Location
Toronto
Country
llCanada
I once took out a Pz III with the RMG of a KV1. The Panzer came sneaking up behind me CE, and I didn't want to turn the turret because the acq counters were keeping the Germans away from a spot I didn't want them to be. so I took that 2+2 shot, got a stun and next turn, when the German infantry had been scared away, turned and blasted the Germans away.(Ok, not just the RMG, but still, it was cool).
 

Actionjick

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
2,347
Reaction score
1,462
Country
llUnited States
"A12.11 KNOWN/DUMMY ENEMY UNIT: ... A ⅝" Dummy stack can claim to be an Emplaced Gun (without Emplacement TEM) or a vehicle but, except for moving, is treated like a ½-inch Dummy stack for concealment loss. ..."

"... Dummy stacks can be created only during initial setup and among OB-designated "?" reinforcements during their initial turn of entry. ..."



Per the first quote of A12.11 a 5/8" Dummy can claim to be a vehicle. As it is not treated like a 1/2" Dummy for purposes of moving, this can only mean that is it treated as a vehicle for such purposes. As 'fake DRs' are N/A for Dummies, I guess it could not act as a Pushed Gun because this would require a 'fake' Manhandling DR. Claiming to be 'a' vehicle does not limit this claim to a particular type of vehicle IHMO, as long as it behaves in a way any vehicle could conceivably behave [EXC: as no fake DRs are allowed, it probably could not pose as a vehicle with red MP numbers after stopping and then wanting to resume movement again, as this would require a 'fake Mechanical Reliability DR.]. Just as 'a' 1/2" Dummy can act as a MMC or SMC (or possessed SW for that matter).

Per the second quote of A12.11, the creation of a Dummy stack is limited to the initial setup or the initial turn of entry if part of reinforcements. You can create Dummies either in the 1/2" or the 5/8" variant at these specified times only (regardless of which type of 1/2" unit or 5/8" unit they elect to act later). For that reason, I don't think that you can switch 1/2" to 5/8" Dummies or vice versa once they have been initially created.

von Marwitz
Still don't buy it, sorry. Too much leeway and not what was the rule's original intent IMHO.

It would be like moving a 1/2" Dummy stack through Snow as if they were Ski equipped when that nationality does not have Ski troops.

I'm not happy with that example but in the middle of scooping litter boxes. More later.😉
 
Last edited:

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,252
Reaction score
2,978
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Still don't buy it, sorry. Too much leeway and not what was the rule's original intent IMHO.

It would be like moving a 1/2" Dummy stack through Snow as if they were Ski equipped when that nationality does not have Ski troops.

I'm not happy with that example but in the middle of scooping litter boxes. More later.😉
Probably comes down to being a gamer, a gamer that plays military "simulations", or perhaps a person that is interested in WW-II that is also happens to be a gamer. The pure gamer really doesn't give a hoot about intent, if it's allowed go for it; A person that's a gamer but has an interest in military simulations as a game might consider using the lack of specificity in a rule to their advantage in a game but overall enjoys the flavor of the "simulation" no matter how streatched the reality may seem; The historical gamer would be appalled at using the holes in rules to ruin his considered "intent"of the rule.
 

Actionjick

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
2,347
Reaction score
1,462
Country
llUnited States
Probably comes down to being a gamer, a gamer that plays military "simulations", or perhaps a person that is interested in WW-II that is also happens to be a gamer. The pure gamer really doesn't give a hoot about intent, if it's allowed go for it; A person that's a gamer but has an interest in military simulations as a game might consider using the lack of specificity in a rule to their advantage in a game but overall enjoys the flavor of the "simulation" no matter how streatched the reality may seem; The historical gamer would be appalled at using the holes in rules to ruin his considered "intent"of the rule.
Well I do consider myself a gamer first which is why I would like the rule clarified so the game can be played correctly. A 12.11 gives examples of how a Dummy 1/2" stack can be moved but doesn't do the same for 5/8".
If the Dummy 5/8" can represent any vehicle that the owner desires how is the opponent supposed to know the moves being made are correct and legal?

When the Dummy stack owner does have vehicles in his OB that are all wheeled can he move the Dummy stack as if it were tracked?

Just doesn't seem right to me.
 

Actionjick

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
2,347
Reaction score
1,462
Country
llUnited States
Still don't buy it, sorry. Too much leeway and not what was the rule's original intent IMHO.

It would be like moving a 1/2" Dummy stack through Snow as if they were Ski equipped when that nationality does not have Ski troops.

I'm not happy with that example but in the middle of scooping litter boxes. More later.😉
A better example might be if the side with 1/2" Dummy stacks has only Conscripts and is moving those Dummy stacks as if they were 1st line units.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
12,336
Reaction score
6,536
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
Still don't buy it, sorry. Too much leeway and not what was the rule's original intent IMHO.

It would be like moving a 1/2" Dummy stack through Snow as if they were Ski equipped when that nationality does not have Ski troops.

I'm not happy with that example but in the middle of scooping litter boxes. More later.😉

I absolutely agree - it without doubt is not the original intent of the rules.
It is a sleaze, and one of the rather crass ones at that.

WRT to Ski-troops: That wouldn't work because the rules allow Dummy Ski Counters (they actually exist in the system...) only if an SSR specifies the presence of troops that may use Skis:

16873

E4.22 DUMMY SKI COUNTERS: Dummy ski counters are provided for scenarios where Dummy counters are allowed to use skis by SSR. Dummy ski counters are treated as normal Dummy counters (A12.11) in all aspects [EXC: they must be stacked with ≥ 1 non-ski Dummy counter(s) at all times or be removed immediately regardless of LOS], but allow that Dummy stack to use ski movement. OB-given Dummy counters may be exchanged for Dummy ski counters as long as the above is adhered to.


von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
12,336
Reaction score
6,536
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
A better example might be if the side with 1/2" Dummy stacks has only Conscripts and is moving those Dummy stacks as if they were 1st line units.
I see no problem with that at all.

A12.11
"... A stack of Dummies containing no real unit may be moved as if it contains a real unit (even to the extent of being able to move with leader/Double Time MF bonuses) ..."


If your OoB only has Conscript squads, your Dummy could pretend to be a Leader or to be Conscripts accompanied by a Leader. I see no reason, why it should not be able to pose as a 1st Line unit as well.


In all this discussion about pretending things one's Dummies are not or apparently cannot be, we have to keep in mind this:
In the vast majority of cases, it is not in a player's interest to pretend to be something that one definitively cannot be in reality, because this will automatically tell your opponent that he is dealing with a Dummy and thus leading their usual purpose of obfuscation and confusion ad absurdum.
The only case I can think of in which it could theoretically make sense is by using such movement to prevent the enemy to gain Concealment and this outweighs keeping the opponent unsure about the nature of your Dummies. On top of that, as you have to stay out of enemy LOS while moving around, you rarely have a chance to pull this off even if you wanted to.

von Marwitz
 

AdrianE

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Messages
842
Reaction score
156
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Country
llCanada
Note that a dummy stack can not pretend to be a unit that requires a DR to move. There is an old Perry Sez that forbids fake rolls.
This means that a 5/8ths stack can't pretend to be a panther and move because it can't do the start roll.
5/8ths dummies can not represent red MP and/or radioless AFVs because of this. You also can't enter bog terrain because you can't fake a bog check.

This does limit the usefulness of 5/8ths dummies.
 

R Hooks

Smoke Break brb
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
762
Reaction score
208
Location
beaumont texas
Country
llUnited States
In a old SL game, a KV-1 had my German company frozen and unable to move across open fields, took a 10-3 leader in a HT up the hill dodged all fire, threw a demo, got a critical hit on the KV, and on the HT all died, but the company was free to start moving.
 

Futbol

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
274
Reaction score
134
Location
Detroit
Country
llUnited States
been playing VOTG scenarios in order and my first two to hit attempts with a MOL projector resulted in boxcars and 1 eventual burning building, Now I'm gun shy using those things.
 

Manilianus

His Royal Fubar
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Messages
2,351
Reaction score
299
Location
Warsaw, Poland
Country
llPoland
It was SL's "Escape from Velikiye Luki" - I've managed to evacuate all of my German squads without a single shot. Soviets couldn't attack/move if they didn't see Wehrmacht troops, and they were placed so misfortunately that the whole scenario was just me moving Germans from one corner to the other.
 
Last edited:

Actionjick

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
2,347
Reaction score
1,462
Country
llUnited States
It was SL's "Escape from Velikiye Luki" - I managed to evacuate all of my German squads without a single shot. Soviets couldn't attack/move if they didn't see Wehrmacht troops, and they were placed so misfortunately that the whole scenario was just me moving Germans from one corner to the other.
Fun scenario! Maneuver may be an under appreciated aspect of the game but your experience seems rather extreme. 😉
 

boylermaker

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
550
Reaction score
435
Location
Virginia
Country
llUnited States
The only case I can think of in which it could theoretically make sense is by using such movement to prevent the enemy to gain Concealment and this outweighs keeping the opponent unsure about the nature of your Dummies. On top of that, as you have to stay out of enemy LOS while moving around, you rarely have a chance to pull this off even if you wanted to.
I could imagine that it might be useful to turn a dummy into a jeep in order to get it into a hex with a concealed vehicle; if your opponent was acting like he knew which one was real and which wasn't, you might be able to regain some fog of war.

But the LOSs that would need to be absent to pull off a maneuver like this are about as bad as in the scenario in which you are trying to keep your opponent from concealing.
 
Top