Have so many other tactical systems hurt ASL?

xenovin

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I bought the ASL RB in 1991 but the DPh phase made no sense to me just reading it. 2007 I picked up SK1, played for 3-4 years and moved up to ASL. So one vote for you Klas

I do wonder how many players ASL have "lost" to SK.

How many have stopped playing ASL and now just play SK?
How many have started playing SK and stopped there, but would have started playing ASL instead had SK not existed?

These two categories, I might consider "lost" (though my guess is that very few other ASL players are now lacking opponents due to it - as I said just a guess).

How many have started playing SK, but would not have started playing ASL? - these are not "lost" (IMO) since they would never have started with ASL anyway.

...finally how many have started with SK and moved on to ASL, but would not have do so had SK not existsed? - we have "won" these. :)

Of course, putting numbers on this is (probably?) impossible.
 

rwpikul

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Going back to the original question for a moment, how is ASL hurt by people playing ASLSK or LnL or CC? Every freaking ASL printing seems to go OOP. If demand is greater than supply, show me the hurt.
The potential harm to ASL of the other games is that people play them rather than play ASL. Either by absorbing players who would otherwise start playing ASL or drawing away people who already play ASL. Now, these other games also have the potential benefit to ASL of drawing people into the hobby and having some of those start playing ASL. As Klasmalmstrom points out, we probably can't quantify the net impact.

Pointing to ASL products reliably selling out doesn't really say much about this potential issue, as it simply means that the sales figures are predictable. If changing the selection of other games in the market caused those predictable numbers to double, it would just mean that the printings would be twice as large, (or twice as often), and still sell out.

Even if other games do not have a direct impact on sales, competing games could still potentially hurt ASL in the longer term: If, say, people buy ASL and LnL but actually only really play LnL then new players entering the market are more likely to simply stick with LnL. This would cause ASL sales to slowly drop unless the overall market size grows fast enough to counteract the falling market share.

Personally, I suspect that other games are going to be a net positive to ASL: ASL has a strong niche within the WWII tactical wargame market and is positioned more to appeal to people who already play tactical games. Games which appeal to a less involved player, (and lack ASL's "I need to buy how much?" reaction), likely serve to grow the market more than they take market share.
 

zgrose

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Pointing to ASL products reliably selling out doesn't really say much about this potential issue, as it simply means that the sales figures are predictable. If changing the selection of other games in the market caused those predictable numbers to double, it would just mean that the printings would be twice as large, (or twice as often), and still sell out.
I think the current data indicates the printing could be larger and still sell out. Dunno about 2x but everything I've seen says there is more demand for ASL than supply even with all the other games on the market. Of course, MMP could be printing in smaller and smaller batches, too. /shrug
 

von Marwitz

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The potential harm to ASL of the other games is that people play them rather than play ASL.
I believe the most devastating danger to ASL is when girls and women begin to play with ASL players.

The former make the rules up as they play along and rumor has it that these are irresistible both to inexperienced and expert ASLers.

von Marwitz
 

RRschultze

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I believe the most devastating danger to ASL is when girls and women begin to play with ASL players.

The former make the rules up as they play along and rumor has it that these are irresistible both to inexperienced and expert ASLers.

von Marwitz
The most devastating danger to ASL is ourselves. Why? How many times do we read on these forums members gloating that they have bought 2+ copies of a module, one as a working copy the other to keep on the shelf. Potential new ASL players cannot get into the system without spending a fortune acquiring out of print modules, and we are looking as a hobby to attract younger players who don’t have the disposable income.
 

larrymarak

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What will eventually diminish ASL is Hasbro no longer licensing a second party publisher to reprint the rules manual, and time. WW2 ended 75 years ago. World War One a century ago. At a certain point interest in the WW2 era will become as irrelevant as the Spanish American War. Some like CH are unofficially bringing the system into the present day, but these won't have traction without official system standing.
 

Larry

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Let's assume that SK pays some bills for MMP. That helps MMP. If something helps MMP, that helps ASL because if MMP doesn't survive, then neither does ASL.

As for duplicate copies, each copy sold adds to the coffers of MMP. That helps MMP's bottom line. That means that MMP will survive to print more ASL later. Demand drives the print schedule.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Let's assume that SK pays some bills for MMP. That helps MMP. If something helps MMP, that helps ASL because if MMP doesn't survive, then neither does ASL.

As for duplicate copies, each copy sold adds to the coffers of MMP. That helps MMP's bottom line. That means that MMP will survive to print more ASL later. Demand drives the print schedule.
Yes!

If a production run don't sell within a "reasonable" amount of time but left languishing in the warehouse, the next production run might be smaller (less capital tied up in inventory plus maintaining a higher inventory velocity is always good) .. or non existent.
 

larrymarak

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It call comes down to whether the rules are in print, since you don't need anything else from MMP to be an ASL gamer. Not that there's a gamer alive who wouldn't to own Beyond Valor and Yanks. It all comes down to what
Hasbro wants to do with that particular property. We are fortunate that the MMP group already had development experience with Monarch Avalon Hill before the fall, and has had so much respect for the game. I could just see the next licensee deciding to repackage ASL as a 60 page rulesbook with an ever changing set of new gamettes.
 

hongkongwargamer

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It call comes down to whether the rules are in print, since you don't need anything else from MMP to be an ASL gamer. Not that there's a gamer alive who wouldn't to own Beyond Valor and Yanks. It all comes down to what
Hasbro wants to do with that particular property. We are fortunate that the MMP group already had development experience with Monarch Avalon Hill before the fall, and has had so much respect for the game. I could just see the next licensee deciding to repackage ASL as a 60 page rulesbook with an ever changing set of new gamettes.
Nothing goes on forever (including me). If the next stage of ASL's evolution involves a (ahem) rehash of Squad Leader, I am happy for that new clientele.
 

hongkongwargamer

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What will eventually diminish ASL is Hasbro no longer licensing a second party publisher to reprint the rules manual, and time. WW2 ended 75 years ago. World War One a century ago. At a certain point interest in the WW2 era will become as irrelevant as the Spanish American War. Some like CH are unofficially bringing the system into the present day, but these won't have traction without official system standing.
Someone go tell all the Napoleonic & ACW gamers that.
 

Swiftandsure

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I could just see the next licensee deciding to repackage ASL as a 60 page rulesbook with an ever changing set of new gamettes.
It would be a risky move, as it would lose the present ASL crowd.
Fortunately, the SK are a streamlined version of ASL, with a stable set of rules.
I don't see why Hasbro would take back the license from MMP, as the latter are doing an excellent job and, even if the income of ASL is certainly smaller than more popular games, it is a quite sure one.
And Hasbro can also show an image of a business which honours serious and complex games.
 
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