Have so many other tactical systems hurt ASL?

von Marwitz

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With regard to the question of the OP:

I cannot really judge this question.

Personally, I have started out with Risk while at school. Then I bought SL & its extensions but have only played maybe 10 scenarios of all that.

After that point I have moved on to ASL and stuck with it. If you want the super-detailed thingy, then I reckon you will end up with ASL.

If not, then probably one can't say that this is hurting ASL.

The point is that it takes considerable time and effort to become reasonably proficient with any really complicated game. The question is why one should invest in this commitment for alternatives to ASL and a doubtful outcome. If you want something which is quick to learn, then probably it is not the super-detailed thingy that you also want.

One game that appears attractive to me is World in Flames. Have not tried this one and it is strategic rather than tactical.

von Marwitz
 

Tater

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I don't know what the assumption is. I am just saying how I took his comment that some might have picked up the SK's and proceeded no further.
Exactly...I know at least three guys. And, by releasing expansions and the PTO, MMP is clearly encouraging and marketing to players that don’t want more than SK. If this is not the case then the SK should have stopped at #3...period. The fact that it didn’t means that MMP is fully aware that SK is now a stand alone product line. It is a competing tactical system with ASL. They should drop the “A” and call it SLSK. 😊

Having said that...this is not a criticism or condemnation...just a statement of fact.
 

Spencer Armstrong

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Exactly...I know at least three guys. And, by releasing expansions and the PTO, MMP is clearly encouraging and marketing to players that don’t want more than SK. If this is not the case then the SK should have stopped at #3...period. The fact that it didn’t means that MMP is fully aware that SK is now a stand alone product line. It is a competing tactical system with ASL. They should drop the “A” and call it SLSK. 😊

Having said that...this is not a criticism or condemnation...just a statement of fact.
ASLite. And it has been for years. PTO makes it laughably obvious. <shrug>
 

dynaman

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I'm an ASLer and Lock N Load tactical player (and a couple of squad level miniatures games). If more people where playing LnLT online I would most likely be playing that more than ASL at this point. I know a few ASL players that have moved on from the game to other games but none to another tactical system I am aware of.
 

rreinesch

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We have lost more players to the SK's than to any other rival system.
I don't at all consider these players as 'lost'. They ARE playing ASL. There isn't anything in the SKs that isn't in full ASL, only the things you can't do. I just had a room of 70 ASLers playing in Austin and a dozen of them were SKers that were playing right along side the rest. Any rules questions posed were answerable just as easily to them as for anyone else in the room. An SKer won the Close Combat award and an SK player was a member of the crowned Team Champions as well.
 
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TomAbromaitis

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I don't all consider these players as 'lost'. They ARE playing ASL. There isn't anything in the SKs that isn't in full ASL, only the things you can't do. I just had a room of 70 ASLers playing in Austin and a dozen of them were SKers that were playing right along side the rest. Any rules questions posed were answerable just as easily to them as for anyone else in the room. An SKer won the Close Combat award and an SK player was a member of the crowned Team Champions as well.
Pretty important post. Probably no need to divide an already pretty small community.

And sometimes... I like setting up a SK scenario. Gives my brain a break!
 

Tater

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I don't all consider these players as 'lost'. They ARE playing ASL. There isn't anything in the SKs that isn't in full ASL, only the things you can't do. I just had a room of 70 ASLers playing in Austin and a dozen of them were SKers that were playing right along side the rest. Any rules questions posed were answerable just as easily to them as for anyone else in the room. An SKer won the Close Combat award and an SK player was a member of the crowned Team Champions as well.
I go to gaming conventions...in some rooms there are 2-3 totally different games going on...the fact that two games are being played side-by-side doesn't make them the same.

SK is literally a throwback to SL. I do not consider SL players to be playing ASL...and I am pretty sure the remaining SL players don't consider themselves to be ASL players.
 

Swiftandsure

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SK is not a throwback to SL: it is far more coherent and has the defensive fire rules of full ASL.
As much as SK are not full blown ASL - and saying that the SK are ASL is misleading, as it wrongly evokes a total identity - they do belong to the world of ASL.
I intially did regret that the SK line of production waded away from its "starter" vocation to have an "ender" one for many players.
But it sells well and still helps many people make their first steps towards full ASL, which feeds the development of full ASL financially and with new players.
We need to greet SK players as brothers in cardboard arms, because they share our passion for WW2 tactical wargaming.
And even if they seem to want to stick to the SK system, we can more readily entice them to leave their country chapel and join the majestic full ASL basilica, with all its bells and wh... gargoyles.
Because playing without bypass, concealment and HoB is like eating without salt and spices. Not speaking of very reduced orders of battle and so few scenarios, compared with the thousands of full ASL ones.
 
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Tater

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SK is not a throwback to SL: it is far more coherent and has the defensive fire rules of full ASL.
Throwback doesn't mean identical...it is a simplified version of ASL that uses multiple rule books...it is definitely a throw back.

As much as SK are not full blown ASL - and saying that the SK are ASL is misleading, as it wrongly evokes a total identity - but they belong to the world of ASL.
I intially did regret that the SK line of production waded away from its "starter" vocation to have an "ender" one for many players.
But it sells well and still helps many people make their first steps towards full ASL, which feeds the development of full ASL financially and with new players.
I haven't said anything that argues these points...but it is still a competing system.

We need to greet SK players as brothers in cardboard arms, because they share our passion for WW2 tactical wargaming.
Who is doing otherwise? I am directing a tourney in August for both ASL and SK. Maybe you should drop the PC hysterics and recognize that pointing out "facts" is not a cruel or exclusionary action.
  1. SK is a throwback to a simpler system (SL)
  2. SK is a competing, separate tactical system to ASL
These facts are neither good nor bad...they are neither welcoming or unwelcoming to SK players...they just are.
 

Swiftandsure

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What are "PC hysterics"?
I am cool and factual.
You got up too early and you are grumpy now.
Go back to bed and try to get some more sleep.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I do wonder how many players ASL have "lost" to SK.

How many have stopped playing ASL and now just play SK?
How many have started playing SK and stopped there, but would have started playing ASL instead had SK not existed?

These two categories, I might consider "lost" (though my guess is that very few other ASL players are now lacking opponents due to it - as I said just a guess).

How many have started playing SK, but would not have started playing ASL? - these are not "lost" (IMO) since they would never have started with ASL anyway.

...finally how many have started with SK and moved on to ASL, but would not have do so had SK not existsed? - we have "won" these. :)

Of course, putting numbers on this is (probably?) impossible.
 

Rock SgtDan

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The Evils of Greenwood,
"Greenwood also, in one of the replies to Collier in the Volume 20, Number 1 issue of The General, described this project as "...a rewritten, succinct and complete compilation of the entire game system in one rulebook." "

-- well, one out of three is ... um ... pretty bad actually.
 

Swiftandsure

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The #1 all-time selling tactical game probably has little influence on ASL

View attachment 9406
Check out the women in the kitchen. o_O
I hated that module : there were constant LOS problems and I never knew when to throw the dice.
And there were no SS ships.
 

Carln0130

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Gentlemen

I was wondering if others thought that the proliferation of other small unit tactical games like Combat Commander, Old School Tactical, Lock & Load, etc, etc, have hurt ASL? I would like to say no, but I think that is unrealistic. ASL compared to any one of those games probably has a more dedicate following. Collectively however, I think these have hurt ASL? (Cost players, sales, etc) This is admittedly just based on my observations of the sheer number of these games.

I wish to be clear here, I am NOT bashing any of these games, to each his own, I just want others take on this situation.

Regards
Joe
Joe, given the steady influx of new players both here and especially on the numerous ASL Facebook pages, I would say no. The other games are for a different style of game play. Far less intense and complex than ASL. ASL and SK will always appeal to a certain player, less complex games to a different style of player. Are there players that do both? Sure, but I think they are different enough beasts that people will inevitably settle into the level of detail that suits them best personally.

Tourney attendance is up and the forums are always humming with new players. Life is good.
 
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