Hatten / HIP for AFV

[Tater]

In HiF the Fortification chart lists 5FPP to HIP an AFV. However, the HiFb rules contain nothing about how HIP AFV are to be handled in the CG. For example, how are they revealed?...like a Gun?

 

[jrv]

In the absence of a SSR to the contrary, they would lose HIP just like any other form of concealment, plus they would convert HIP into "?" in the usual ways. I have done a quick scan of the Hatten rules and don't see any SSR that might apply to the CGs, but it was only a quick scan. Several of the scenarios allow certain vehicle to maintain HIP when firing their MA, so if there is a similar SSR for the campaign games it probably won't be in the standard Hatten SSRs (which would apply to the scenarios too).

JR

 

[Tater]

In the absence of a SSR to the contrary, they would lose HIP just like any other form of concealment, plus they would convert HIP into "?" in the usual ways. I have done a quick scan of the Hatten rules and don't see any SSR that might apply to the CGs, but it was only a quick scan. Several of the scenarios allow certain vehicle to maintain HIP when firing their MA, so if there is a similar SSR for the campaign games it probably won't be in the standard Hatten SSRs (which would apply to the scenarios too).

JR

OK, that is reasonable...however, HIP for vehicles is such an unusual occurrence that I think at least some reference ought to be made in the CG rules in the "Concealment" section. Particularly since that section in the HiF rules grants automatic "?" (in terrain) to infantry only. Since the standard rules (HIP is the equivalent of "?" in the standard rules) would only allow vehicles to set up concealed if one had OB given "?" counters. Now, I guess one could consider buying HIP for 5FPP is the same as buying a "?"...but that is an assumption.

 

[jrv]

OK, that is reasonable...however, HIP for vehicles is such an unusual occurrence that I think at least some reference ought to be made in the CG rules in the "Concealment" section.

Perhaps. But many other AH/MMP CGs, from Red Barricades forward, allow purchase of HIP for vehicles, and I can't remember any of them making a special mention of it either.

Particularly since that section in the HiF rules grants automatic "?" (in terrain) to infantry only. Since the standard rules (HIP is the equivalent of "?" in the standard rules) would only allow vehicles to set up concealed if one had OB given "?" counters. Now, I guess one could consider buying HIP for 5FPP is the same as buying a "?"...but that is an assumption.

One can buy "?" for the normal cost of one FPP, make a 5⁄8 "?" then put it on a vehicle as normal. The reason for allowing infantry to set up concealed may be at least partially to simplify fortification purchases.

JR

 

[Tater]

Perhaps. But many other AH/MMP CGs, from Red Barricades forward, allow purchase of HIP for vehicles, and I can't remember any of them making a special mention of it either.

Odd, I recall that all the CG that allow HIP vehicles have fairly explicit rules on how to handle them. For example in RB it is only allowed for dugin tanks...

“Only the Russian may set up AFV using HIP, and must do so as per D9.5

A Dug-in AFV may set Up using HIP in Concealment Terrain (including Rubble) as per normal Gun HIP rules (A12.34)”

I actual can’t think of any others I have played where it was allowed and it wasn’t clearly spelled out in the fortification/CG rules how to play them. That is why it seems so odd for just having an FPP cost and not another single solitaire word anywhere else in the CG rules about HIP AFV.

Take A12.4 for example...if I have a HIP vehicle and another vehicle drives through the location...is my vehicle revealed...according to A12.4 it isn’t...

...but what about the extra movement cost to enter another vehicles location? Would that apply when entering a HIP AFV’s location?

What about D2.6?

Can an AFV HIP in bypass? Building/woods are concealment terrain and bypass is not a separate location?

There are probably other issues...

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Odd, I recall that all the CG that allow HIP vehicles have fairly explicit rules on how to handle them. For example in RB it is only allowed for dugin tanks...

“Only the Russian may set up AFV using HIP, and must do so as per D9.5

A Dug-in AFV may set Up using HIP in Concealment Terrain (including Rubble) as per normal Gun HIP rules (A12.34)”

I actual can’t think of any others I have played where it was allowed and it wasn’t clearly spelled out in the fortification/CG rules how to play them.

The only other (official) CG I have found that allow HIP purchase for AFV are Pegasus Bridge and Festung Budapest (but I could be missing some).

As far as I can see, neither of those mention anything about how to play hidden AFV either.


The thing that is lacking are rules for hidden vehicles in section A12 - that's where it should be, IMO - perhaps it was thought that the occurence was rare enough in the beginning of ASL it was deemed unnecessary.

 

[jrv]

The only other (official) CG I have found that allow HIP purchase for AFV are Pegasus Bridge and Festung Budapest (but I could be missing some).

Suicide Creek allows purchase of HIP for 5⁄8 inch counters. VotG allows for AFVs. I don't know if the latter is for dug-in tanks only. I looked at only a few CGs and assumed it applied to the rest as well.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Suicide Creek allows purchase of HIP for 5⁄8 inch counters. VotG allows for AFVs. I don't know if the latter is for dug-in tanks only. I looked at only a few CGs and assumed it applied to the rest as well.

VotG is for Russian Dug-In AFV only (same as in RB) - "Only the Russian may set up AFV using HIP, and must do so as per D9.5;"

 

[Tater]

Another issue I thought off...if you pay HIP for a transport capable vehicle, do you have to pay separately for the passengers or do you get them free with the vehicle cost?