Hatten EmRR

Velocette

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Fellow ASLers,
I am struggling mightily with EmRR LOS (and TEM) in Hatten. Please assist!

9904

QUESTIONS:

  1. Do the Panther and Sherman have LOS to each other? If yes, what the TEM for the Panther if the Sherman makes a TH DR on VTT?
  2. Does the 5-4-6 have LOS to the 4-6-7 and the 4-4-7 Squads?
  3. Does the 6-6-7 have LOS to the 4-6-7 and the 4-4-7 Squads? If yes, what is the TEM of the 4-4-7 if attacked on IFT?
EDIT 3A. Does the Sherman have LOS to the 4-4-7 Squad?

Thanks,
Velo
 
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Velocette

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Continuing the theme on HT EmRR......

9906

4) Does the 5-4-6 LOS to the 5-4-8 in Y19? If Yes, what is the TEM for the IFT attack?

9907

5) Does the 5-4-6 LOS to the 9-1 and 2-3-8 in CC5? If Yes, what is the TEM for the IFT attack? (If it were in range).

Thanks again,
Velo
 

CTKnudsen

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With a bit of trepidation:
  1. Yes. It is possible that the two AFV would be HD to one another, but I'm not 100% on that. - Edit - it seems that they would be HD to each other, per F6.5 and the F6.4 EX. No TEM.
  2. Yes. The 4-6-7 and 5-4-6 are at the same level. The 4-4-7 would get an orchard hindrance from BB10.
  3. Yes to both. I Think the 4-4-7 would get a TEM of +1 vs a shot from the 6-6-7, but F6.5 is really hard to parse.
  4. Yes, with +3 for orchard hindrances (Z16, Z17, Y18), and +1 for the hedge.
  5. Yes, with +2 for wall, and (probably, depending on LOS) +2 for orchard (BB9, BB10)
 
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jrv

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QUESTIONS:
  1. Do the Panther and Sherman have LOS to each other? If yes, what the TEM for the Panther if the Sherman makes a TH DR on VTT?
  2. Does the 5-4-6 have LOS to the 4-6-7 and the 4-4-7 Squads?
  3. Does the 6-6-7 have LOS to the 4-6-7 and the 4-4-7 Squads? If yes, what is the TEM of the 4-4-7 if attacked on IFT?
EDIT 3A. Does the Sherman have LOS to the 4-4-7 Squad?
All the mentioned LOSes exist. Both vehicles would be hull down. The 4-4-7 would have +1 TEM if attacked by the 6-6-7.

JR
 

jrv

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  1. Does the 5-4-6 LOS to the 5-4-8 in Y19? If Yes, what is the TEM for the IFT attack?
  2. Does the 5-4-6 LOS to the 9-1 and 2-3-8 in CC5? If Yes, what is the TEM for the IFT attack? (If it were in range).
Both LOSes are good. The 5-4-8 gets the hedge TEM. An attack to CC5 would get the +2 wall TEM (or hull down if a vehicle).

JR
 

CTKnudsen

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Hmm, I thought graveyards/wrecks only affected same-level LOS - unless level .5 and level 0 are equivalent for this purpose?

Good Lord, the hillock rules need a re-write for clarity.
 

jrv

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Hmm, I thought graveyards/wrecks only affected same-level LOS - unless level .5 and level 0 are equivalent for this purpose?
Per F6.52, "A ``half-level'' Hindrance (as defined in 4.51), when on a hillock or not, can affect LOS/LOF to/from/across a hillock hex only if both the firer's and target's elevations are within a half-level of, and the elevation of at least one of those units is ≤ that of, the Hindrance's Base Level."

In the example given, both units are within a half-level of the vehicle and the graveyard, and CC5 is ≤ the Hindrances Base Level.

JR
 

CTKnudsen

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Per F6.52, "A ``half-level'' Hindrance (as defined in 4.51), when on a hillock or not, can affect LOS/LOF to/from/across a hillock hex only if both the firer's and target's elevations are within a half-level of, and the elevation of at least one of those units is ≤ that of, the Hindrance's Base Level."

In the example given, both units are within a half-level of the vehicle and the graveyard, and CC5 is ≤ the Hindrances Base Level.

JR
Excellent, funny how when I go to read the ASLRB, I always miss the key bits. But is a graveyard a 1/2 level obstacle per F4.51? It's not listed as such. Whether that's by design or omission (Graveyards in the desert? Preposterous, old chap!)

Now I think it's completely sensible that it should be, but again, B32.2, and most of Chapter F, need a major overhaul, so...
 

CTKnudsen

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Apparently not. I assumed that all non-full-level hindrances were half-level, but that may not be so.

JR
And it really makes sense that they would be, but because Ch F was written so specifically to the desert (or so it seems to me), it is not clear that this is in fact the case.

I hesitate to put a question up to Perry on this, if only because the second I assume that all non-full-level hindrances are half-level, someone will come up with a good one that shouldn't be. So let's look at the terrain hindrances:

Bridge: specifically 1/2 level per F4.51
Brush: specifically 1/2 level per F4.51
Crag: specifically 1/2 level per F4.51
Grain: specifically 1/2 level per F4.51
Graveyard: not listed in F4.51
Light Woods: Level 1 hindrance
Marsh: specifically 1/2 level per F4.51
Olive Grove: per Orchard
Orchard: Hindrance to same level LOS, 1 Level hindrance out of season (basically).
Vineyard: as per Brush
Hut: Level 1 hindrance
In-Season Paddy: as per Grain
Kunai: as per Brush
Palm Trees: as per Orchard

Am I missing any terrain hinder-ers? If not, it seems that Graveyard is the only terrain feature that is not either specifically listed as a level 1 hindrance, nor directly or indirectly covered by F4.51. Perhaps the question should be:

Are graveyard hexes considered to be inherent "half-level" hindrances (per F4.51) when computing lines of sight for Hillocks or Deirs?
 

jrv

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Towers can be defined as obstacles or hindrances [B34.2]. They are typically 1.5 or 2.5 levels.

Debris (in several CGs) is defined as half-level [RF1.1], although F4.51 doesn't mention it.

JR
 

CTKnudsen

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Q&A sent, although I am 100% sure the answer will be that graveyard hexes are a 1/2 level obstacle - it makes sense, and I get the feeling it was omitted from the F4.51 list in error.
 

CTKnudsen

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Answered in the affirmative by Perry - Graveyard hexes are indeed a half-level obstacle.
 

Velocette

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ASL Mates,

I sincerely appreciate the detailed responses. Think I have it now, but am still a bit confused on EmRR as Inherent Terrain. One more question below:

9918

Several German units have moved from their locations in the earlier picture (Blue Arrows).

Q6: Does the Sherman have LOS to all three units that moved (4-4-7 / 4-6-7 / 9-1 & 2-3-8)? NOTE: I think it does have LOS to all.
If no LOS to a unit (4-4-7 / 4-6-7 / 9-1 & 2-3-8), please explain why.

Thanks again for your assistance - I just can't get my head around Hillocks.
VR,
Velo
 

CTKnudsen

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Provided the building in AA13 doesn't block, the Sherman will have LOS to all the German units. As the tank is adjacent to the EmRR, it can see anything on or beyond it.
 

Velocette

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Provided the building in AA13 doesn't block, the Sherman will have LOS to all the German units. As the tank is adjacent to the EmRR, it can see anything on or beyond it.
Sir - even as I thought that was the answer -- I was afraid that would be the answer. I have been playing this terribly wrong :cautious::mad:

Does the same LOS principle apply to ANY unit (not just an AFV as in this example) adjacant to the EmRR? IE..... a 5-4-6 with a 60mm in the same hex as the Sherman?

VR,
Velo
 

CTKnudsen

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Yup! The EmRR is treated exactly like a really long and narrow hillock, meaning that any unit (not entrenched) adjacent to it can see it, and beyond it. If there were a second EmRR, they could see a unit adjacent and behind that, too.
 

Velocette

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Yup! The EmRR is treated exactly like a really long and narrow hillock, meaning that any unit (not entrenched) adjacent to it can see it, and beyond it. If there were a second EmRR, they could see a unit adjacent and behind that, too.
Thanks so much for the insight and patience. I whole heartedly agree with your earlier comment that this rules set could use a re-write (or an extensive /expansive Journal article) to reduce confusion / incorrect play.

VR,
ATS
 
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