Has ASL evolution left behind "ART" pieces, like 10-3s?

Eagle4ty

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The basic nature of ASL is by original intent, that of a small scale tactical game. That weapons systems designed to be of an operational nature in their use would appear on board is as said, normally a condition brought about by unforeseen (and unwelcome) circumstance and usually not by doctrinal design. Even in grand tactical situations found in many HASLs, their appearance would be minimal given the operational ranges of several km/mi from their targets the systems were expected to perform at.
 

thedrake

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Web DSC00971.jpg

I like scenarios that use arty pieces myself,especially some of the heavier or more rare ordnance pieces in the system. Sometimes do a DYO scenario revolving around a certain pieces or two of ordnance.
 

thedrake

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Air raid Ludendorff bridge 90mm vs V1.jpg BoB German guns Three Patrol Action.jpg USN 127 arty wake.jpg Stanichka Lt.Romanov and bunker defenders.jpg Paul Y Tennis Anyone Budapest.jpg Polish Surprise at Westerplatte.jpg Stentzlers Wary Recon storming Brit AA gun.jpg Aussie Fanatic ad hoc gun crew with Pak covers plaza.jpg Web Bofors gun and crew in gunpit Maleme.jpg

Photo excerpts showing Guns I have used as center of my small DYO scenarios as well as published scenarios.
 

witchbottles

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The basic nature of ASL is by original intent, that of a small scale tactical game. That weapons systems designed to be of an operational nature in their use would appear on board is as said, normally a condition brought about by unforeseen (and unwelcome) circumstance and usually not by doctrinal design. Even in grand tactical situations found in many HASLs, their appearance would be minimal given the operational ranges of several km/mi from their targets the systems were expected to perform at.
I tend to disagree based on the fabric of generalities within the ASL system itself. Let's take a prime example of Ost Front inherent heavy mobile artillery - the Russian 120mm Mortar. Used by every Russian formation from late 1941 on the battlefield, in the hundreds and by 1944, thousands, across the length of the entire front.

In ASL terms, this counter gets a ROF 2 and has a 12 hex minimum range. So it fires at around 480 meters (525 +/- yards) - if one assumes the hex is, as stated roughly 40 meters across - for a minimum shot drop, on a weapon meant primarily for indirect fire as designed. Yet 500 yards is nothing for range or visibility - one can quickly and easily see and lay such a weapon for direct fire without any special optics beyond a telescope or a pair of decent binoculars. By 1943, the Russians had figured this out, and the weapon found itself pressed into direct fire frontline use from the Kuban Bridgehead until the end of the war. Why? Weight of the HE shell it fired and its consequent destructive power made it extremely useful to do so for any Russian commander, becomes one good reason. Couple that with an ease of transportation from 1943 on, and its high ROF historically, it becomes an ideal direct fire towed assault gun. Finally, add in the ease of manufacture and limited costs for both the weapon and its ammunition - it is a no-brainer why this became such a standard "go-to" for ad hoc artillery direct fire support.

Turning to ASL - good luck finding it in many ASL scenarios. I doubt it exists in more than 50 of them ever printed, by any manufacturer. ( meaning perhaps 50 out of 7000 + scenarios so far) - not to mention its almost total scarcity in CGs.

Why?

It's too damn powerful of a weapon in ASL terms. in a two board scenario, it can drop 120mm fire (ATT 12 FP, Critical hit 24 FP) with a 2 ROF on 5/8s of the map space in play. and that within its CA if set up towards a back corner to provide a supporting fire, so it need not even turn its CA to fire. If its a three board scenario - forget it, this thing in a back corner can cover 66% + of the map in play, inside its CA and range limits.

Yet this is precisely what the weapon was used for in combat actions from 1943 on. It simply is not depicted in ASL terms. It can be depicted and presented well. To do so requires a design more carefully planned, developed and playtested than many others - and the resulting project, in order to balance that destructive fire in ASL terms - becomes a larger scenario than one that would be classified as "tournament sized".

This is a triple whammy for this artillery piece. Larger than tourney size means a smaller number of playings and therefore, less demand by publishers. Those that do get published fail to live up to their expectations as fewer players find enjoyment within a larger design than those who prefer smaller ones. Finally, a string of decent luck at an opportune moment with such an amount of firepower on map can result in a lopsided win and quickly so.

In this instance, the 120 MTR becomes at least, if not morre, deadly than any 10-3 kill stack HMG team on an overwatch position.
( and it doesn't even require a leader.)

KRL, Jon H
 

kcole4001

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I think the limiting factor for larger mtrs is the (sometimes) large minimum range and the need for at least a level 2 perch to have any reasonable LOS.
Woods, orchards, and lvl 1 buildings block so much LOS that preferable a lvl 3 hill or rooftop is really mandatory to achieve any real use in a scenario, and a decent length to acquire targets.
In a 4.5 turn scenario you have to be pretty lucky to get any ordnance hits at all, and really are almost dependent on achieving rate to have any appreciable effect on the outcome.
And if you're only playing on a half board, forget it, long range pieces don't belong.

Disregarding HIP ordnance, how many times in those larger scenarios have we spent inordinate amounts of time and thought to getting that gun into position after our opponents have stayed well out of it's LOS, just to have one or two potential shots miss and the scenario end before the gun (or mtr) contributes to play, other than keeping your opponent out of it's LOS.
Sometimes that is it's function, just keeping the enemy cautious and channeling him elsewhere, but we all want to fire that sucker.
Sure, they are an effective threat, but it's much more fun blasting the enemy than making him move somewhere he doesn't really want to go.

In a way, the scenario pretty much has to be designed around the ordnance.
 

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The 120mm MTR is not significantly more dangerous than the 50calHMG in ASL. And, if paired with a -2/-3 leader, the 50calHMG becomes significantly more dangerous. There are few scenarios I would trade a .50calHMG for a 120mm MTR. The only advantage in ASL it has is maximum range, but even at 17-32 hexes, the advantages of the 50calHMG usually outweigth the disadvantages of the 120mm MTR; and the HE ability against armored targets. Even against hardened targets in ASL, it is usually better to have a 50calHMG with leader direction, as the 12+5/7 shots are generally ineffective.

Also, the CH chances. Note the CH of a 120mm MTR is on the 36 table with a -1 DRM (C.7), not the 24 table.
 

GeorgeBates

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The 120mm MTR is not significantly more dangerous than the 50calHMG in ASL. And, if paired with a -2/-3 leader, the 50calHMG becomes significantly more dangerous. There are few scenarios I would trade a .50calHMG for a 120mm MTR. The only advantage in ASL it has is maximum range, but even at 17-32 hexes, the advantages of the 50calHMG usually outweigth the disadvantages of the 120mm MTR; and the HE ability against armored targets. Even against hardened targets in ASL, it is usually better to have a 50calHMG with leader direction, as the 12+5/7 shots are generally ineffective.

Also, the CH chances. Note the CH of a 120mm MTR is on the 36 table with a -1 DRM (C.7), not the 24 table.
A counterpoint:
While your -2/-3 leader is preoccupied directing the fire of the DShK through the smoke that Jon's 12cm GrW 42 has laid down, his -2/-3 leader will be pushing a stack of LMG-toting 5^2-4-8s on to the objective.

My money's on the mortar.
 

Brian W

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My money's on the mortar.
Okay, the next five times you play a scenario with a .50calHMG, see if your opponent will allow you to exchange the weapons (and a half squad for a crew; you may have to adjust CVP points appropriately, too); or vice versa if you have a scenario with a 120mm MTR in it, exchange it for a .50calHMG. I'll be interested in the results.

.50cal HMG
Advantages:
  • portable
  • no minimum range
  • ROF 3
  • subject to leadership modification of the IIFT
  • AA capable.
disadvantages
  • ineffective against amour of >2 at ranges >6 (or amour >1 at ranges >6),
  • ineffective against NCA of pillboxes
  • no CH possibility,8 IFT on table
  • maximum range of 32 (16 without leadership direction)
120mm MTR:
Advantages
  • 12 IFT on the table
  • CH possible
  • effective against all armor
  • effectively unlimited range
  • Smoke (s8)
  • Small target
  • Spotted fire
Disadvantages
  • High minimum range (12 min)
  • Must achieve hit first to affect enemy units.
  • ROF 2 (vs 3 of HMG)
  • CA restrictions/TH modifiers
  • Immobile (M9, circled)
  • Restricted from firing from certain terrain types, most notably Pillboxes and Buildings.
 
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GeorgeBates

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Okay, the next five times you play a scenario with a .50calHMG, see if your opponent will allow you to exchange the weapons (and a half squad for a crew; you may have to adjust CVP points appropriately, too). I'll be interested in the results.
The point of the post was that it is not only the value of the weapon itself, but how well you can coordinate its use with the other items in your toolbox. There also might have been a message in there about getting everything possible out of a -2/-3 leader by having them run with the troops. From that total value perspective, again my money is on side with the mortar.
 

Brian W

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I did forget about smoke generation. Smoke is incredibly powerful in ASL, so that makes it a closer decision, but still in most circumstances, I'd rather have the .50.
 

Brian W

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The point of the post was that it is not only the value of the weapon itself, but how well you can coordinate its use with the other items in your toolbox. There also might have been a message in there about getting everything possible out of a -2/-3 leader by having them run with the troops. From that total value perspective, again my money is on side with the mortar.
I think we have to assume that any of those things is dependent on factors other than the simple value of the weapon itself. If you think your -3 leader is better used in the AFPh, that's fine, but would you rather have that -3 leader supported by a 120mm MTR rather than a .50cal HMG? In ASL, my response is usually by a .50cal HMG. In real life, probably a different answer.
 

Robin Reeve

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Note that Infantry crews have the morale of the elite troops of their nationality.
A weapon also gets its worth from the unit maning it: being able to hit hard is nice, being tough enough to sustain enemy attacks to go on firing another day is even better.
 

von Marwitz

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Why?

It's too damn powerful of a weapon in ASL terms. in a two board scenario, it can drop 120mm fire (ATT 12 FP, Critical hit 24 FP) with a 2 ROF on 5/8s of the map space in play. and that within its CA if set up towards a back corner to provide a supporting fire, so it need not even turn its CA to fire. If its a three board scenario - forget it, this thing in a back corner can cover 66% + of the map in play, inside its CA and range limits.
Maybe a way to include German or Russian 120mm MTRs into a scenario design would be to add Air Support or an OBA module to counter it.

von Marwitz
 

bendizoid

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The 120mm minimum range makes it almost worthless in +- 75% of ASL scenarios. In ASL take the .50, in real life maybe the 120mm.
 

jrv

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I just played a game where my opponent had a 10-3, two 10-2's, and two 9-2's. It wasn't really a problem.

JR
 

kcole4001

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So we've pretty much decided the best defense would incorporate a 10-3, .50 cal, and a 120mm (or larger) MTR.
Just as you think 'now I have you' after closing under the MTRs min. range, the 10-3, squad, and .50 open up....'not so fast, sucka'.
Hmmm, can't recall ever seeing a Russian 10-3 in a scenario, however.
 
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