Gun IF in Final Fire after being marked with "First Fire"

[Will Fleming]

AA8.4 FINAL FIRE: That portion of Defensive Fire which occurs during the DFPh is called Final Fire. During Final Fire any of the DEFENDER's units/weapons that are not marked with a First, Final, Intensive, or No Fire counter may fire. Any such units/weapons that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again (by flipping their First Fire marker over to the Final Fire side), but as Area Fire and only at units in an adjacent (or same) hex, therefore also possibly benefiting from PBF (or TPBF). A unit/weapon already marked with a Final Fire counter cannot fire during Final Fire. Final Fire affects all applicable units in a target Location—not just those that may have moved—but without any modifiers for FFNAM/FFMO.

--> So does the gun have to use the ATT and get +2 for IF and an additional +2 for Area Fire?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A Gun can use either VTT/ITT/ATT and pays the +2 for Intensive Fire.

 

[Will Fleming]

I think that is how everyone plays it and Aaron pointed out C.4 which states

AC.4 ORDNANCE AREA FIRE: Ordnance Area Fire never halves the FP effect of any hit. Instead, any shot affected by any provision of Area Fire caused by the target's status uses the Case K To Hit DRM (6.2). Fire during the AFPh is represented by use of To Hit Cases B/C as applicable. An AFPh attack vs a concealed (Area) target uses To Hit DRM B/C as applicable, plus Case K. If the firer's status would impose Area Fire (e.g., Pinned, LATW firing from shallow stream, etc.), Case D applies (5.4). See also 3.53.

C5.4 CASE D; PINNED FIRER: Any ordnance weapon whose firer is under the effects of a PIN counter must add the +2 DRM of Case D to its To Hit DR and forfeits any Multiple ROF. Firers under the effect of Area Fire (e.g., LATW firing from shallow stream) also add the +2 DRM for each instance. See also A7.81-.82.

--> However, I still wonder about the Area fire (based on firer status). Doesn't that mean that there would be an additional +2 TH in this case?

 

[jrv]

AA8.4 FINAL FIRE: That portion of Defensive Fire which occurs during the DFPh is called Final Fire. During Final Fire any of the DEFENDER's units/weapons that are not marked with a First, Final, Intensive, or No Fire counter may fire. Any such units/weapons that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again (by flipping their First Fire marker over to the Final Fire side), but as Area Fire and only at units in an adjacent (or same) hex, therefore also possibly benefiting from PBF (or TPBF). A unit/weapon already marked with a Final Fire counter cannot fire during Final Fire. Final Fire affects all applicable units in a target Location—not just those that may have moved—but without any modifiers for FFNAM/FFMO.

--> So does the gun have to use the ATT and get +2 for IF and an additional +2 for Area Fire?

Are you confusing "Area Fire" with "Area Target Type"? A8.4 says you must fire as "Area Fire" but does not mention anything about "Area Target Type." I don't understand why you mention it except possibly you are confusing the two terms.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

--> However, I still wonder about the Area fire (based on firer status). Doesn't that mean that there would be an additional +2 TH in this case?

I think that "Area Fire" in A8.4 is primarily meant to apply to small-arms/MG/and-the-like - instead of just saying they are halved, and not to Ordnance.

 

[jrv]

I understand better what you are asking, although bringing in "Area Target Type" seems to be without justification.

But what is interesting is whether case K (concealment) or case D (pinned firer) applies in addition to case F (intensive fire). C.4 says that when the target's status causes Area Fire, case K will apply (instead of halving the FP). In the case of intensive fire it is not the target's status that causes area fire, but the firer's. C.4 is not invoked and so case K does not apply.

Case D says that if the firer is "under the effect of Area Fire" then case D applies. As you note A8.4 says a unit firing while marked with First Fire would be using Area Fire, presumably as well as Intensive Fire, and so would be subject to Cases D and F. I don't think that is what was intended. It certainly isn't the way that is commonly played. Perhaps an erratum from MMP might be necessary, as I think you are correct in reading the rules as saying both D and F apply.

JR

 

[Juan SantaX]

Hi all!

A friend of mine made me notice that when you use case F, case D is NA, as is written at the TH table.

Does it change what was said here?

 

[Juan SantaX]

At the C5 table... Nothing is easy at ASL!!!

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A friend of mine made me notice that when you use case F, case D is NA, as is written at the TH table.

I believe that's just a reference to the fact that a pinned unit can't use Intensive Fire.

 

[Juan SantaX]

I see.

So by the letter of the rule, should we apply both, F and D?

I never played it like that!

 

[klasmalmstrom]

So by the letter of the rule, should we apply both, F and D?

Not exactly sure what you mean. A Pinned firer (Case D +2) can't use Intensive Fire - so Case F would not apply.

 

[Juan SantaX]

I was reading what JR said a few post before... And a friend of mine noticed what the table C.5 said...

Should a firer "under the effect of area fire" count both F and D drm when IFing?

And Im thinking of a gun under a D1F counter that IF (that happens almost every game).

I never played that way, but I have limited knowledge of the rules.

Thx in advance

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Should a firer "under the effect of area fire" count both F and D drm when IFing?

I don't think so. Subsequent First Fire would be Area Fire - but one does not use SFF when one is using Intensive Fire.

 

[Juan SantaX]

Great then!

Indeed Its not SFF. And I dont know if there is any one case of gun (not sw) that can IF while subject to area fire (and I will not search them)

Thx a lot

 

[esparver73]

AA8.4 FINAL FIRE: That portion of Defensive Fire which occurs during the DFPh is called Final Fire. During Final Fire any of the DEFENDER's units/weapons that are not marked with a First, Final, Intensive, or No Fire counter may fire. Any such units/weapons that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again (by flipping their First Fire marker over to the Final Fire side), but as Area Fire and only at units in an adjacent (or same) hex, therefore also possibly benefiting from PBF (or TPBF). A unit/weapon already marked with a Final Fire counter cannot fire during Final Fire. Final Fire affects all applicable units in a target Location—not just those that may have moved—but without any modifiers for FFNAM/FFMO.

--> So does the gun have to use the ATT and get +2 for IF and an additional +2 for Area Fire?

When using Intensive Fire you don’t flip First Fire to Final Fire. You replace the current fire marker with an Intensive Fire marker. C5.6.

 

[jrv]

And I dont know if there is any one case of gun (not sw) that can IF while subject to area fire (and I will not search them)

Firing at a dashing target.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Firing at a dashing target.

That would incur Case J, IIRC.