Gun Duel Query

Binchois

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Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever experienced mutual destruction on a simultaneous Gun Duel? It seems like one of the most unlikely possibilities the game offers!:confused:

P.S. If it happened to me, I think I would never stop telling people about it!
 

Brian W

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Yes, it's not that rare; I think the rarest thing I've seen is a Harakiri (sp?) of a Japanese conscript half squad in CC.
 

von Marwitz

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Yes, it's not that rare; I think the rarest thing I've seen is a Harakiri (sp?) of a Japanese conscript half squad in CC.
I re-read the Hara-Kiri rules prompted by this post:
"...The opponent does receive Casualty VP for each unit eliminated by Hara-Kiri [EXC: non-leader Hero; 1.65]. ..."

Which means the benefit of committing Hara-Kiri, if successful, lies in halving the opponents potential CVP in case by negating the doubling due to becoming prisoners?

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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Nice piece of ASL-finery regarding Interrogation! I would not have thought of that. :clap:

von Marwitz
 

Sparafucil3

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Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever experienced mutual destruction on a simultaneous Gun Duel? It seems like one of the most unlikely possibilities the game offers!:confused:

P.S. If it happened to me, I think I would never stop telling people about it!
I have seen it once at a table next to me. I never managed it myself. I have been sleazed on one bit of finery. If the DRM's are equal, any DEFENDER TCA/VCA activities that take place regardless of who rolls lower. So if your opponent manages to hit, preferably it will be a favorable aspect to your survival. -- jim
 

Brian W

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Which means the benefit of committing Hara-Kiri, if successful, lies in halving the opponents potential CVP in case by negating the doubling due to becoming prisoners?
Yes, it was in a scenario from MMP (can't remember the name) on Makin, with a CVP cap and Grants tanks. Mark Zimmerman did it to avoid a 6:1 capture attempt IIRC. Don't recall who he was playing, about six years ago or so.
 

Russ Isaia

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You must read the whole two sentences :
This is a way to determine who fires first in the (rare) case when both firers have the same DRM.
It will be the lowest DR which will determine the first to shoot - and if the shot makes the other firer unable to fire back that's it.
I don't see where this annulates the idea of a Gun duel : one fires before the other one.
Having a DRM < than the Defender simply allows the Attacker's vehicle to fire first. It isn't the definition of a Gun Duel ("a vehicle may attempt to Bounding First Fire (D3.3) its MA (/other-FP, including Passenger FP/SW) at that DEFENDER first").
This is the only case when both firers fire simultaneously (which could lead to mutual elimination).
Gun Duels are not normally simulatneous, except in that case.
I am struggling to get to this answer, at least to the extent of claiming C2.2401 supports klasmalmstrom's tactic of allowing an attacker, which is certain to lose the Gun Duel (has the greater DRMs), to attack before other defenders can fire (which I too thought brilliant and duly scribbled down).

C2.2401, first sentence, states that the attacker qualifies to fire first "provided" it has the better DRMs.

Then C2.2401 states that if the DRMs are a tie, the attacker may still get to fire first in the Gun Duel (but may not).

But what C2.2401 does not say is that if the DRMs are unfavorable to the attacker, there is still a Gun Duel but the defender's fires first.

Of course, the defender first fires. But is it because you still have a Gun Duel and that was so obvious that it need not be stated? Or is it because the defender has declared a DFF attack and the attacker could not supercede that attack with a Gun Duel so the DFF attack is execute as per normal? But if that is the rationale for the defender firing first, doesn't the attacker -- if it survives the first DFF attack -- have to sweat out the next DFF attack from another source, unless it can supercede that attack with a Gun Duel against that new defender)?
 

Sparafucil3

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I am struggling to get to this answer, at least to the extent of claiming C2.2401 supports klasmalmstrom's tactic of allowing an attacker, which is certain to lose the Gun Duel (has the greater DRMs), to attack before other defenders can fire (which I too thought brilliant and duly scribbled down).
The rule says you have to completely resolve the Gun Duel before any other units can fire. If the ATTACKER is not eliminate by the initial shot (even if he loses the DRM pre-game), the Duel is not fully resolved. -- jim
 

Russ Isaia

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The rule says you have to completely resolve the Gun Duel before any other units can fire. If the ATTACKER is not eliminate by the initial shot (even if he loses the DRM pre-game), the Duel is not fully resolved. -- jim
Really? Where does it say that?
 

Eagle4ty

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Yes, and possibly preventing Interrogation (should that be in effect).
And it always can by mutual agreement, it's an optional rule, not an SSR specific one. However, I can undrstand that many players do not incorporate it because it makes the game too complex.:D:rofl::yell::readit::jig::rofl:
 

Sparafucil3

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Really? Where does it say that?
D2.2401. After the initial Gun Duel has been fully resolved, and if otherwise able and allowed to, that DEFENDER may announce another attack vs that ATTACKER who in turn may declare another Gun Duel.

DEFENDER declares a shot. ATTACKER declares Gun Duel. DRM's are determined to see who shoots first. If they tie, there is a roll off. If they are still tie, both are resolved simultaneously. If they are not tied, lowest DRM shoot's first. If the target is not eliminated, then it gets to shoot. After this, normal D1F resumes. It is possible for the ATTACKER to declare another Gun Duel provided he meets the conditions of D2.2401. -- jim
 

Russ Isaia

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D2.2401. After the initial Gun Duel has been fully resolved, and if otherwise able and allowed to, that DEFENDER may announce another attack vs that ATTACKER who in turn may declare another Gun Duel.

DEFENDER declares a shot. ATTACKER declares Gun Duel. DRM's are determined to see who shoots first. If they tie, there is a roll off. If they are still tie, both are resolved simultaneously. If they are not tied, lowest DRM shoot's first. If the target is not eliminated, then it gets to shoot. After this, normal D1F resumes. It is possible for the ATTACKER to declare another Gun Duel provided he meets the conditions of D2.2401. -- jim
My apologies, I see that text now. But the sentence deals with the situation when there is an "initial Gun Duel." How does it bear on the question of what happens if there was no Gun Duel, i.e., because the proviso (fewer or at least equal DRMs) is not met?
 

jrv

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My apologies, I see that text now. But the sentence deals with the situation when there is an "initial Gun Duel." How does it bear on the question of what happens if there was no Gun Duel, i.e., because the proviso (fewer or at least equal DRMs) is not met?
I see a rule that says the attacker can not fire first if he does not have an equal or smaller DRM. What rule says there is no Gun Duel if the attacker does not have an equal or smaller DRM? Could you please quote the text?

JR
 

Russ Isaia

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I see a rule that says the attacker can not fire first if he does not have an equal or smaller DRM. What rule says there is no Gun Duel if the attacker does not have an equal or smaller DRM? Could you please quote the text?

JR
A8.1. "Anytime a unit/stack expends MF/MP in the LOS of one of his units, the DEFENDER has the option to temporarily halt its movement while he fires at it in the Location with as many attacks as he can bring to bear." [Emphasis added.] The claim is that there is an exception for successful Gun Duels, those in which the Attacker fires first, and unsuccessful Gun Duels, those in which the Defender gets the first shot. I grant C2.2401 is an exception for successful Gun Duels, but where is the language for unsuccessful Gun Duels? People who want exceptions need to produce language to that effect, not the other way around.

BTW, I could not find another thread or Q&A bearing on this. I did look. But as the weight of opinion seems against me (and no one has ever been troubled by the language before), I will file this under "not explicit, but the accepted view is" that you can use Gun Duels, even those you lose, to delay the DFF of other units long enough to squeeze off your shot(s), should you survive the defender's fire.
 

Robin Reeve

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A duel doesn't imply that you win for it to be a duel.
COWTRA.
You are allowed to declare a Gun Duel that you will be the second to fire in.
Which doesn't imply that you will lose it, btw (especially if the TH DRM difference is low or if the target DRM of the first firer lead to higher final TH DRM than for the second firer).
 
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Sparafucil3

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My apologies, I see that text now. But the sentence deals with the situation when there is an "initial Gun Duel." How does it bear on the question of what happens if there was no Gun Duel, i.e., because the proviso (fewer or at least equal DRMs) is not met?
The Gun Duel exists because the ATTACKER declared it. The DRM's have no bearing on the existence of the duel. DEFENDER says "I shoot". ATTACKER say "Declare Gun Duel". From that moment forward, the only two units on the map who may act are those two. If you win, you roll first. If you roll second, you have to survive to roll. Once both side have had a chance to roll (or not been allowed to roll because the first DR killed/broke/SHOCKED/STUNNED you), then normal D1F may proceed. It is possible to declare a second gun duel if you still meet the conditions. -- jim
 

Yuri0352

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Yes, it was in a scenario from MMP (can't remember the name) on Makin, with a CVP cap and Grants tanks. Mark Zimmerman did it to avoid a 6:1 capture attempt IIRC. Don't recall who he was playing, about six years ago or so.
'Makin Taken' ?
 

Gunner Atkins

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FWIW I tend to agree with you Russ.

Gun Duels are introduced in C2.2401 and the first sentence describes them as needing a series of conditions including the ATTACKER'S Gun Duel DRMs<DEFENDER'S.

ie they are defined as the cases where the ATTACKER gets to shoot first.

There is then the exception for when the DRMs are equal.

No mention of the possibility of Gun Duel if the ATTACKER'S DRMs>DEFENDER'S.

The reference to the Gun Duel being 'fully resolved' means either the normal case where the ATTACKER has fired followed by the DEFENDER or takes into account those rare situations where the DEFENDER shoots first due to the relative TH DRs when the Gun Duel DRMs are equal. I don't think that that phrase in itself is enough to explicitly allow cases of the DEFENDER firing first when their Gun Duels DRMs are lower.

I'm not saying I'm necessarily right but I am surprised that so few others aren't reading it this way and the lack of a Q+A clarifying it.

I would be happy to play it the way others have been and are suggesting but perhaps an official clarification is in order?
 
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