Gun Duel Query

RaphaelC

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Hello All,

In C 2.2401 Gun Duels, one of the conditions for doing so is that 'its total Gun Duel DRM (i.e. its total Firer-Based and Acquisition) TH DRM for its potential shot is < that of the Defender'.

Later in the same paragraph (Line 14-16) it says 'If the Attacker's and Defender's total Gun Duel DRM are equal, the lower Final TH DR fires first'.

So, if they are equal, why is there still a gun duel?

Many Thanks,

Raphael
 

Robin Reeve

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You must read the whole two sentences :
If the ATTACKER's and DEFENDER's total Gun Duel DRM are equal, the lower Final TH (or non-ordnance IFT) DR fires first - and voids the opponent's return shot by eliminating, breaking, stunning or shocking it.
This is a way to determine who fires first in the (rare) case when both firers have the same DRM.
It will be the lowest DR which will determine the first to shoot - and if the shot makes the other firer unable to fire back that's it.
I don't see where this annulates the idea of a Gun duel : one fires before the other one.
Having a DRM < than the Defender simply allows the Attacker's vehicle to fire first. It isn't the definition of a Gun Duel ("a vehicle may attempt to Bounding First Fire (D3.3) its MA (/other-FP, including Passenger FP/SW) at that DEFENDER first").
If those two Final DR are equal, both shots are resolved simultaneously.
This is the only case when both firers fire simultaneously (which could lead to mutual elimination).
Gun Duels are not normally simulatneous, except in that case.
 
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RaphaelC

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Many Thanks,

I totally overlooked that first 'first' in Line 4.

Regards,

Raphael
 

von Marwitz

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Note also that some times you might want to declare a Gun Duel vs a defending unit even if you know you will lose the Gun Duel because if you survive you will at least be able to shoot back before any other defending units can shoot at you.
Smart...

[Hastily scribbling into Ye Olde Blacke Booke of von Marwitz's Quillets...]
 

Brian W

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In practice, I don't think I've ever seen someone declare a gun duel just to get the second shot. I suppose if you were using a FT or MG/IFE it would make more sense than a Gun to try for the second shot.
 

klasmalmstrom

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...I suppose if you were using a FT or MG/IFE it would make more sense than a Gun to try for the second shot.
I can see it making equal sense for a Gun as well - e.g., if you are facing two enemy tanks - as one rarely declares a Gun-Duel/BFF attack unless there is a decent chance of hitting to begin with. But as with alomst everything in ASL, it is situational dependent.
 

Sparafucil3

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In practice, I don't think I've ever seen someone declare a gun duel just to get the second shot. I suppose if you were using a FT or MG/IFE it would make more sense than a Gun to try for the second shot.
I will always declare of my opponent gives me the opportunity and I know he will have more than one thing to shoot at me. As a DEFENDER, I always declare my first shot as the one out of the CA for the attacking shot if the shot has a reasonable chance of success. Always create chances for yourself to roll dice while seeking ways to limit your opponents chances to roll dice. -- jim
 

Gunner Atkins

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But Klas I thought the rule says that a Gun Duel can only be declared if (amongst other conditions) the ATTACKERS Gun Duel DRM is < the DEFENDERS. If the Gun Duel DRMs are equal then it goes down to the TH DRs. I can't see how the rules allow a Gun Duel when the ATTACKERS DRMs are > the DEFENDERS thus other DFF shots should come before any BFF.

So, maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by 'lose the Gun Duel'

Also, am I right that a vehicle could declare Gun Duels against any number of units attempting DFF against it as long as all other conditions (and maintining ROF) are met?
 

RaphaelC

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Note also that some times you might want to declare a Gun Duel vs a defending unit even if you know you will lose the Gun Duel because if you survive you will at least be able to shoot back before any other defending units can shoot at you.
Thanks.

I think another good tactic for me would be to learn to read the rule in the first place!

Regards,

Raphael
 

klasmalmstrom

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But Klas I thought the rule says that a Gun Duel can only be declared if (amongst other conditions) the ATTACKERS Gun Duel DRM is < the DEFENDERS.
I believe you can declare it otherwise as well - in fact, when declared you won't always know the the unit's DRM - one could have e.g., an Armor Leader that the opposing side does not know about.
 

Robin Reeve

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But Klas I thought the rule says that a Gun Duel can only be declared if (amongst other conditions) the ATTACKERS Gun Duel DRM is < the DEFENDERS. If the Gun Duel DRMs are equal then it goes down to the TH DRs. I can't see how the rules allow a Gun Duel when the ATTACKERS DRMs are > the DEFENDERS thus other DFF shots should come before any BFF.
See previous posts.
The ATTACKER's DRM < the DEFENDER's is just the condition for the former to fire first.
 

RaphaelC

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But Klas I thought the rule says that a Gun Duel can only be declared if (amongst other conditions) the ATTACKERS Gun Duel DRM is < the DEFENDERS. If the Gun Duel DRMs are equal then it goes down to the TH DRs. I can't see how the rules allow a Gun Duel when the ATTACKERS DRMs are > the DEFENDERS thus other DFF shots should come before any BFF.

So, maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by 'lose the Gun Duel'

Also, am I right that a vehicle could declare Gun Duels against any number of units attempting DFF against it as long as all other conditions (and maintining ROF) are met?
If I understand Swiftandsure's original reply, the ATTACKERS Gun Duel being < the DEFENDERS is not a condition for actually initiating a Gun Duel. If it is < it allows him to fire first in the Duel (see Line 4 in C 2.2401).
 

Brian W

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I will always declare of my opponent gives me the opportunity and I know he will have more than one thing to shoot at me. As a DEFENDER, I always declare my first shot as the one out of the CA for the attacking shot if the shot has a reasonable chance of success.
I avoid driving my tanks into crossfires. If you are playing someone that knowingly presents his side or rear to your DEFENDING AT assets, well, I hope you are beating that person soundly. It seems you are describing situations that a DEFENDER can do to avoid the ATTACKER's declaration of a Gun Duel. And to that, I say, sure. Give me some more AT assets and I will have so many interlocking fields of fire you will never see a gun duel declared.

Unless there is something HIP/concealed that I don't know about, I know if I'm going to win a gun duel or not. If I'm not going to win the gun duel, then I shouldn't be taking a crappy shot and letting my opponent get a reasonable shot at my tank--I should be maneuvering. Also, using the vehicle in BFF pulls its teeth for the rest of its MPh, so it should be a good shot you're taking.

Now I mentioned FT and MGs, as they are weapons that are not penalized in the same way as guns, so while they often lose gun duels, their return fire is effective aside from the bad DRM that causes one to lose the gun duel, while a gun that is going to lose a gun duel is probably not in a good position to achieve a hit.
 

ActionBurk

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Note also that some times you might want to declare a Gun Duel vs a defending unit even if you know you will lose the Gun Duel because if you survive you will at least be able to shoot back before any other defending units can shoot at you.
Nice point!
 

Sparafucil3

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I avoid driving my tanks into crossfires.
Sometimes you gotta crack a few eggs. Playing with Fortenberry has taught me a couple of things, if the tanks aren't part of the VC, then any remaining at game end are a bonus. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. -- jim
 

Brian W

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They're more valuable sleezing, usually.
 
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