Grudge Rules as Tournament Rules

STAVKA

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The author has been warned against making derogatory comments directed at forum members.
We weren't into optional rules, house rules and I wasn't even aware of grudge rules. We played strictly by the book because that was what we expected tournaments to do.

There are only two tournament rules I remember from Oktoberfest.

Fish's mulligan where your first loss didn't count as a loss for you but still as a win for your opponent. He was in the Post Office golf league back then. I didn't think it was a great idea but figured let's try it. That rule was only used that year.


In '92 to qualify for the Weekend tournament you had to play Guards Counterattack. Obviously to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Stalingrad. We both thought this was a fitting tribute to the scenario and the battle.
MMP, have changed many original rules with new "grudge" rules.

Introduced grudge Incremental IFT fire table rule and even suggested to use a House rule CTC to the IIFT.

Bet the threadstarter have no passport and never will get one.

But pretends to be shocked, why not complain about the many USA tournament grudge rules. Guess its too close to home.
 

bendizoid

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We weren't into optional rules, house rules and I wasn't even aware of grudge rules. We played strictly by the book because that was what we expected tournaments to do.

There are only two tournament rules I remember from Oktoberfest.

Fish's mulligan where your first loss didn't count as a loss for you but still as a win for your opponent. He was in the Post Office golf league back then. I didn't think it was a great idea but figured let's try it. That rule was only used that year.


In '92 to qualify for the Weekend tournament you had to play Guards Counterattack. Obviously to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Stalingrad. We both thought this was a fitting tribute to the scenario and the battle.
Fish had a dice rule also.
 

pensatl1962

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D. The snap shop rule - Not a biggie for me as rarely happens.

True. But makes me wonder why they'd put in a tournament special rule for something so specific and yet so rarely occuring.
 

Michael R

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There is a list of Tournament SSR for the New York State Championship. I remember some tournament somewhere specifying “no Schwerpunkt dice”.
 

clubby

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There is a list of Tournament SSR for the New York State Championship. I remember some tournament somewhere specifying “no Schwerpunkt dice”.
What was the issue?
 

wrongway149

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Swedish/Arnhem
Tournament SSR

7. VEHICLES: Vehicle Crews can never gain Control of Terrain. Unarmed Vehicle with no MMC Passengers is immediately Recalled.
I generally like the others, but would amend this to ''crew of ány vehicle not capable of carrying passengers''. (Allow for recon crews to dismount for control. Think M20 scout car.)... Únarmed vehicles with no passengers may not spend MP (exc: Start/stop) unless under recall.
 
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Pitman

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I generally like the others, but would amend this to ''crew of ány vehicle not capable of carrying passengers''. (Allow for recon crews to dismount for control. Think M20 scout car.)... Únarmed vehicles with no passengers may not spend MP (exc: Start/stop) unless under recall.
Do you like the rules enough that you want to force a whole room of people to play with those rules instead of official ASL rules? THAT is the point, not whether you or anyone personally likes or dislikes any of the rules.
 

Honza

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Thanks to Mark I finally know what a grudge rule is.
 

bprobst

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As probably the most vocal critic of the Arnhem tournament rules, and someone who actually attended (and @Mister T -- tournament rules are not why a person does, or does not, attend a tournament, why do you persist in your non-argument?), and someone who discussed these rules with some of the other people who attended, I came away with the following conclusions:

0. These are absolutely, 100% grudge rules. I have no proof, but I am completely convinced that each of these rules exist because somebody lost a critical scenario at a tournament and it erks them beyond measure that it happened, so NEVER AGAIN!

1. Dice. Since the dice I regularly use, and even the dice I irregularly use, cannot hope to live up to the standards imposed, I didn't bring any. I borrowed my opponents' dice, which never caused a problem. I would prefer to have been using my own dice, because they're my dice, and I like them, despite all of the boxcars they regularly generate. And they're not unbalanced. Any idiot person who thinks their opponent is using unbalanced dice needs to prove it, and that proof involves either documenting a few thousand dice rolls, or taking the dice and making those few thousand DR themselves. Just making the accusation because you didn't like that he rolled a 2, 3, 2, 3 sequence of DR once and destroyed your carefully-laid plan is not good enough!

2. Everyone that I talked to thought that the various SSR were just as silly and pointless as I do. (Some are worse than others -- the OBA rule is tolerable, the no kindling rule is an excuse for lazy people (mostly scenario designers) who don't like to study a scenario in advance to see if there are flaws in the design, the rest are just plain dumb.) The "hot gossip" was that a very few but but very opinionated and somewhat influential individuals are responsible, and everyone else just tolerates them because it's better than putting up with the whining.

3. None of them ever came up in any of the scenarios I played. The one scenario I played that featured OBA had the radio guy sniped by the second turn; he never had a chance to draw any cards, let alone red ones. None of the other rules were ever relevant or even potentially relevant. However, if that had not been the case -- if any scenario I played looked like it might invoke one or more of the dreaded SSR -- I would have argued most strenuously to my opponent that we simply ignore that silliness. I came to play ASL, not some other game that some other person thinks is better than ASL. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that most of the guys I played would have been OK with that. So considerably more effort was involved in composing and publishing these SSR than was ever justified, or could possibly have been justified.

Guys, in your own house, play by whatever house rules floats your boat. When you're not in your own house, just play by the rules. It's fairer, faster and simpler; or to put it another way, just common-sense.
 

STAVKA

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In our group we decided after discussing it, not to fly over the pond, to Albany or Aslok, all had our reasons, one of the reasons were no site with prior tournaments info throughout the years and no tournament rule set. Like all Scandinavian and most european tournaments have.
 

GeorgeBates

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Three quick thoughts:
  • Best way to resolve dice issues is to have both players roll the same dice
  • If the TD wants a certain quality of dice used, then give them to participants as tournament swag
  • An ASLML quote from Monsieur Argent is seared in my memory, "Faith, use not the Mulligan"
 

bprobst

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MMP blessed the tournament by attending it, which does not equate to an active endorsement of them but simply mean that they can live with these tournament rules.
What? You have not the faintest idea of what you're talking about. Can I suggest that you simply accept your ignorance and stop making pointless comments trying to defend the indefensible?

(MMP did not "attend" the tournament, they stuck their head in the door, said "hi" to a couple of people, and then disappeared. Not only was it not an "active endorsement", it's highly probable that they neither knew nor cared what the tournament rules were, let alone what anybody else thought of them.)
 

asloser

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Last 25 years I've been tournaments in US (icluding ASLOK) Sweden, Denmark, Norway and been on and off organizing the Finnish one.

I have never seen, in my honest opnioin, rules that were too bad to get along.

And, as always with ASL there re so many ways to organize an event. None of them are better or worse as such it just comes down to the individuals who volunteer to take that job and do as they see fit. And that adds more variety to it.

In Borås Supporting fire (which uses the same rules as Arnhem) I pull out my 16mm precision dice and ask if my opponent is ok for me to use them. Personally I tell my opponent that I do not care what dice he uses as life is too short worry about that - to prove if someone is using bad dice is beyond tournament situation and to me useless use of time and resources.

The more variety the better, even in tournement rules.
 

Stewart

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Kindling is NA is an improper way to correct a bad representation of the fire.
Simply modify the spreading fire capabilities or what have you.

Yes, Grudge rules.....Pick better scenarios to play and modify each as you see fit.
The FT Grudge is pointless...DONT have FT tanks....the Range of the FT is limiting enough...The INF kill stack is more powerful vs infantry.
 
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