Grudge Rules as Tournament Rules

[Doug Leslie]

True, although that is a weakness in the rout rules. It should be known Armed enemy unit.

That is the rule. It might have been amended from the original rulebook to avoid this kind of situation.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

That is the rule. It might have been amended from the original rulebook to avoid this kind of situation.

One can still rout towards a unarmed, Known enemy unit - but not ADJACENT to one....

A10.51:
"A routing unit may never rout toward a Known armed enemy unit ...."

So a truck five hexes away will not prevent a rout towards it....

A10.51:
"A routing unit may never move ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit, unless in doing so it is leaving that enemy unit’s Location."

But if only one hex away, it will prevent a rout towards it...so a truck can be used to enforce FTR.

 

[STAVKA]

But if only one hex away, it will prevent a rout towards it...so a truck can be used to enforce FTR.

..or two hexes away

 

[sdennis]

When my opponent asks to use my dice, I certainly allow it. Then we he gets all the three's and I get the elevens and twelves, it only supports what I knew all along --that my dice are, in fact, BIASED.

Against ME!

My brother and I use the dice of the home we are playing at (we alternate fairly regularly per CG). My brother will swear in court both sets know who is rolling them!

 

[Vic Provost]

[QUOTE

If a glass cup is honestly considered too loud for a tournament as we saw upthread, you can guarantee Pop-a-Matic dice would be too. The only sensible thing to do, honestly, would be to draw chits instead of roll dice.

Nope, I have a Dice Tower with cushioning built in like the ones Steve Pleva made years ago, I have one in Mahagony wood and red foam felt to deaden the sound of my precision dice. I can play to my hearts content and will not bother anybody. Way better than a glass for me.

 

[STAVKA]

So a truck five hexes away will not prevent a rout towards it....

Even if the truck is further away it can spoil the Rout path for units that can not declare a rout to the leader in the building 3-5 hexes away.

Only a better rule, like - Unarmed trucks without passengers is treated as if offboard during the Rout Phase.

 

[Actionjick]

I think there are very few around here who believe ASL to be a simulation even among whom you term "historical realists".

von Marwitz

How about " ASL is a reflection " of WWII combat.

 

[Robin Reeve]

All wargames are an attempt to describe and reproduce historical events from some selected perspectives.
They cannot cover all aspects of the events, quite like historical books are not exhaustive studies of history.
ASL gives an approximative image of WW2 tactical combat.
If you like Van Gogh's or Turner's ways of reflecting reality, you will understand the good aspects and limits of ASL.

wikimedia commons image : https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Vincent_van_Gogh_-_The_Church_in_Auvers-sur-Oise,_View_from_the_Chevet_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg

 

[von Marwitz]

I base my statement on well known studies by many different labs funded by the Nevada gaming commission.

gaming towers are not equal. There are designs that do not adequately randomize the path the dice must take while falling through the tower. A series of the ramp baffles should be at lest 3 ramps with the orientation shifting on multiple planes.

https://www.smartcraps.com/SmartCraps_theory.pd

https://cspages.ucalgary.ca/~cwill/papers/2021/Craps-PER.pdf

https://www.scribd.com/document/499006991/Cheat-Moves

Interesting stuff!

However I think the described cheating methods at best partially apply to our ASL tournament situation:

First of all, the situations described in the linked papers refer to situations in which someone is actively trying to cheat or to manipulate the dice, for example holding the dice close together and rolling them in a way that lessens the probability of their turning about one of the three axes, making certain outcomes more probable than others.

I think it is safe to assume that ASL players using non-precision dice (or precision dice for that matter) are not actively trying to cheat. And if they were, they could apply some of the methods described in the papers both on precision and non-precision dice.


Regarding dice towers, there might be some (this is personal guesswork) that might be more suspectible to dice sliding down the slopes inside rather than rolling - maybe acryl-material types. If you combine such a "sliding rather than rolling" dice tower with the method of entering the dice in a way that reduces movement around one of the three axes, then you might, just might bring about some changes in the outcome that could be statistically relevant.

However, do you think if you use this method ("sliding tower" & reducing one axis rotation), that there would be any difference between cheating with normal dice and precision dice this way?
My bet is, that the difference of outcomes between precision dice and normal dice when using this way of cheating is irrelevant in game terms. If there is relevance, this would be caused by the cheating, not the difference of the types of dice.

Now if the Arnhem tournament rules would want to prevent / make harder a cheating method of diceroll manipulating techniques, then they should ban certain types of dice towers (the potential "dice-sliding" variants). This the rules notably do not do apart from requiring "silent" versions (which might eliminate the acryl-types at best as a side effect). Dice-throwing methods could better be eliminated by using leather cups rather than dice towers, I reckon.


Yet, we have to remember, that the main argument is about requiring precision dice.
And the papers you link note that you have to be a skilled dice controller for relevant effects. Which we have to reasonably assume is simply not there in our ASL tournament situation. And even if so, that skill will be at least partly negated by the use of any dice tower, or even completely by dice cups, leaving already nothing relevant to worry about. But on top of that and more importantly, can a skilled dice controller better/less control precision dice than normal dice?

With all due respect, but I have my doubts about that.

von Marwitz

 

[STAVKA]

How much at Arnhem tourny? Or any ASL tourny?

1st prize 200 $ (Module & book), 2nd 100$ (Action Pack & book)

1st prize at backgammon championship 85K Euro = 93 000 $
2nd prize 50K Euro = 55 000 $

Explain the Tournament rule, to be able to demand that the most high quality dice offered on the market, will be used.

3.3 The dice

• 1.
  IN GENERAL. If they are available, a player can demand that precision dice are used in preference to other dice. If precision dice are only available after the match is started, the player can demand that the dice are replaced at that point.

 

[Robin Reeve]

At least, we can consider that the prizes would not be a reason to cheat.

 

[Vic Provost]

I have never witnessed anyone cheating, accused of cheating or other such nonsense at any tourney, as I have been to may since the late 80s, it simply is a rumor in my life. Never seen a bad die but just the chance of cheap dice not being right sent me to Battleshool when they were still selling precision dice. I would not play whomever if found to be cheating or using a bad die that he knew was not right, that is for sure. Why cheat at ASL? How freaking low can you go... We are here for the fun of the game and the comradery of fellow players in the hobby. Why ruin that for yourself for a win? I have been a win one, lose one player for decades, my dice could have been better over time but so it goes, I still love this game, no matter what the dice do to me. Play for fun, if you win a prize great, but the game experience is usually my best reward.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I used to call all my opponents cheaters, before I realised that I was just a mediocre player.

 

[pensatl1962]

I have never witnessed anyone cheating, accused of cheating or other such nonsense at any tourney, as I have been to may since the late 80s, it simply is a rumor in my life. Never seen a bad die but just the chance of cheap dice not being right sent me to Battleshool when they were still selling precision dice. I would not play whomever if found to be cheating or using a bad die that he knew was not right, that is for sure. Why cheat at ASL? How freaking low can you go... We are here for the fun of the game and the comradery of fellow players in the hobby. Why ruin that for yourself for a win? I have been a win one, lose one player for decades, my dice could have been better over time but so it goes, I still love this game, no matter what the dice do to me. Play for fun, if you win a prize great, but the game experience is usually my best reward.

Agree heartily. This is a game -- an avocation, not a vocation. Not to be taken so seriously as to create undue stress. It's supposed to be a stress relief.

 

[pensatl1962]

One of my FtF friends had a pop-o-matic die “cup” for ASL and maybe the same or another had this spinny thing. Much fun.

(edit) either way, the goal is to introduce enough variation that the grip or toss of the dice has no bearing on the outcome. Most people get tied up in superstition and emotion.

I think given the licensing agreements Hasbro almost certainly would enforce, a TPP would have to do some sort of "Pop-o-matic COMP" knockoff...

 

[PresterJohn]

And you could imagine Hasbro Marketing enforcing the separate sniper die popomatic and heretical RoF popomatic. And you'd need the LV popomatic with three D6.

 

[PresterJohn]

And the semi-serious thought of MMP selling a configurable ASL dice rolling App using random.org via a subscription of some sort.

 

[tunixx]

Interesting stuff!


I think it is safe to assume that ASL players using non-precision dice (or precision dice for that matter) are not actively trying to cheat. And if they were, they could apply some of the methods described in the papers both on precision and non-precision dice.

von Marwitz

I hate to destroy your illusions, but it happened to me at the Grenadier tournament. On the last turn my opponent started one of those infamous suicide charges. I saw him arrange his dice to snakeeyes. Then he placed the dice at the top of his dice rolling device. The device was no dice tower but rather just an oblique plane made of Lego bricks. In my book this is active cheating though it didn't work out for him, he failed to pass his MCs.

When he showed up at the Conscripts tournament we advised his opponents to take care that he shakes his dice before dropping them into his device.

 

[GeorgeBates]

You got to roll, roll, roll them...

 

[STAVKA]

I hate to destroy your illusions, but it happened to me at the Grenadier tournament. On the last turn my opponent started one of those infamous suicide charges. I saw him arrange his dice to snakeeyes. Then he placed the dice at the top of his dice rolling device. The device was no dice tower but rather just an oblique plane made of Lego bricks. In my book this is active cheating though it didn't work out for him, he failed to pass his MCs.

When he showed up at the Conscripts tournament we advised his opponents to take care that he shakes his dice before dropping them into his device.

As the Finns say - that is Kamala (translate, Horrible).