Today, having read here about the weird dice rules at the Arnhem ASL tournament, I went to the tourney's website to read those rules. However, once there, I discovered that the rules imposed for this tournament were chock full of "grudge" rules as well.
Mark, I haven't met you personally but I think your work at desperationmorale.com is awesome! Even though I know that some people don't agree with you, and maybe I don't either at all points, it's of great value and I know that you have put a lot of work in it. Well done!
With that said, I also want to highlight the fact that it's impossible to have equal opinions on all matters – after all, that's what makes us human. The trick is to talk (aka debate) about these opinions without being rude and with respect of each others opinions.
I'll now try to explain my thoughts about this. Since you directed this thread to the AAT (Arnhem ASL Tournament) I feel that I should explain my thoughts about this since I was the Tournament Director 2024.
First, a little background about me: I am the Tournament Director of two ASL Tournaments;
Supporting Fire since 2012, and
The Arnhem ASL Tournament 2024. I have played ASL since late 80's and attended tournaments since 2003. I have built a large collection of thoughts and opinions about this game during the years, and I have also learned to understand why I'm playing – Because it's fun (yes, it's also fun to win, but I rather play a good game that I lose, than a boring one that I win). Ie, I'm here because I want to have a good time!
I know that many players are more competetive than me, but we are all here because we love this game. And I know that we all have our pet peeves (I have at least two more rules that should be corrected, but that's another story).
Many of the rules are influated from other tournaments, especially
ASL Scandinavian Open,
Stockholm ASL Tournament,
Friendly Fire, Arnhem Tournament and
Rimforsa. Since I think those were and are great tournaments, and I respect the people behind them, I also vaue their opinions high. They are, after all, among the best ASL players in the world.
I respect your opinion about our Tournament SSR's. There are surely tournaments that have none of that, and I would gladly attend them. However, I realize that ASL have some flaws in the rules (not many, but some), and until the changes are made official (probably never) I will do what I can to make my tournaments as enjoyable as possible for the attendees.
And yes, there certainly is a will to make it more historical (eg, no truck driver ever stayed on the battle field after doing their task), but also to not destroy a game with use of game mechanics.
You call them
"grudge rules". I would like to call them
"Small corrections to create a better and more enjoyable game, that shouldn't impact balance in a negative way, but if used in a bad manner will destroy the game and experience".
As Bruce already have pointed out not many players care about the Tournament SSR's. In fact, during the Arnhem Tournament I never saw any dispute about this. Some people borrowed dice and towers from me, others bought them, and others didn't care.
No one spoke to me about any of the SSR's or their opinion in the matter.
I have seen games destroyed by burning grain, berserk trucks, firing at huts to start blazes etc etc. The thing is, ASL have seen the development where people started to use the rules to get them to win the game. I am quite sure that Don Greenwood never Kindled buildings to win a game. The game was just not created to win at all cost, it was created to have fun. As more players sought to win games at tournaments, rules began to be bent and used in a mechanical way that was never intended.
So, here are my opinions about the SSR's from the
Arnhem Tournament.
I have only commented on the rules discussed in this thread.
3. Precision Dice and Dice Tower
We would like all players to use precision dice (with dots and ball-cornered). Semi-Precision dice like Battleschool dice are not precision dice and not allowed unless you and your opponent agrees upon using them. There will be plenty of precision dice available to lend out and for sale.
We would also like all players to use a Dice tower if possible. Noisy dice equipment is NA. Dice towers are available to lend out and possibly for sale.
DICE-TOWER USAGE: When a DR or dr is made each die must, together with each other die, be rolled through the full height of the dice-tower and end its roll flat on the tower-floor. Otherwise, the entire DR or dr must be re-rolled.
(I see now that it doesn't state that "you are free to use whatever dice you want as long as you opponent is fine with that.", but rather "unless you and your opponent agrees upon using them" in a wrong context. That should be corrected.)
The reasoning behind this rule is first and foremost
Balance and
Speed.
Balance: By getting rid of any questions about unbalanced dice you don't need to waste any energy on that.
Speed: We have all learnt to count one to six dots and add them together extremely fast. Probably a zillion times faster than any non ASL player (I get extremely frustrated playing Monopoly at our family gatherings
). I love to play fast – rolling the dice and calculating the result before they dice have stopped makes my games fast, thus I can spend more time thinking about other things. If there suddenly is a hero, a flag, a wound or some other things among the dots, my games comes to a halt.
Keep momentum.
This rule gives players the option to decline wooden dice, original AH dice (that rolls sixes more often than ones) and other strange dice because they want to focus on the game, not the dice.
That must be a good thing, right?
If you don't like Precision Dice or Dice Towers, humbly ask your opponent if you could play with your dice. It costs you nothing and the worst thing that can happen is that you have to use you opponent's dice – Not always a bad thing.
I would like to point out that I don't control what dice the players use. As Vinnie wrote: "If one wants to and the other does not, then the TD will point to the tournament rules." I am 100% certain that none of the Arnhem attendees felt me supervising the rules (I only nagged about ending time and speed of play which also is my duty).
Edit: I would also like to point out the guideline about "noisy dice equipment". If you take a plastic box (hard pastic that really can sound a lot if you put things in it) and put your dice in it, then shake the box for 20 seconds before you stop, you will annoy not only your opponent, but everybody in the room. The same goes with big empty drinking glasses. Not very funny, and even not funnier if you have tinnitus. Just sayin'.
Players are free to take the time they feel they need to play a thoughtful and considerate game. However, excessive delay is NA. Opponents may always prompt players to move along play if they perceive the time is excessive.
Set up for either side should not be much longer than 30 min.
During each round, we will also announce the time left when we are closing in.
Note that slow playing will lead to disadvantage if the game has to be judged.
Efectiveness. I want my tournaments to be effective and enjoyable for the attendees. If one of the players are extremely slow, it will be a boring game for the other player.
All in all I had to judge one (1) game during the Arnhem tournament and IIRC there were 3 games in total decided by an agreeing dice roll.
Without this nagging about time those numbers would have been much higher.
Kindling (B25.11) is NA unless specifically allowed by a scenario SSR.
This should definitely be changed in the rulebook. I have seen games wrecked because a player kindled VC areas or areas you have to pass through. All tournaments I attend to regularly have this SSR. All modern scenarios also have this SSR.
When attempting Battery Access for an OBA Module and no more than one black and/or red chit(s) have been permanently removed from the Draw Pile and the second permanently-removed red chit is drawn, return it to the Draw Pile instead, and that ends the Observer’s OBA actions for that Player Turn (i.e., the second red chit can only be removed from the Draw Pile if at least two black chits have been permanently removed from the Draw Pile for that OBA Module). An Original Contact/Maintenance DR of 12 does not cause the breakdown of a Radio or elimination of a Field Phone, although an Original DR of 12 does cause the loss of Radio-/Phone-Contact.
Discussed by
Jim Bishop in his OBA article in Journal 14.
Personally I use this at campaign games, but not while playing normal scenarios.
The reasoning to use this at tournaments is to make the game balanced.
You should not be afraid of having OBA due to red cards or bad dice rolls.
Basic TK# for a FT-mounted-AFV is 6 at one hex and 4 at two hexes and 3 at three hex range. The same decreased TK# applies for an Infantry FT (i.e., 6 at one hex range and 4 at two hex range). Modifications of the Basic TK# (C7.2) apply.
FT's are way to good against AFV's in ASL if you ask me. AFAIK this is a common opinion and also used by other tournaments.
Vehicle Crews can never gain Control of Terrain.
You can drive your AFV through the enemy lines, abandon your vehicle and start to take control over buildings. Something I have done myself and have seen on several occasions.
Not very historical and games can easily be destroyed.
This rule prevents that, and it's also an SSR many modern scenarios have.
Any Unarmed Vehicle with no MMC Passengers is immediately Recalled.
Some people have already pointed this out. Its ahistorical and can destroy a game. Should be a standard rule.
It also speeds up the game with lesser pieces to care about!
Snap Shots are NA across Walls/Hedges, nor across a Crest line that is Higher than the shooter.
This SSR's are based on actual events where players didn't agree, and this SSR settle this.
I have heard that the Snap Shots are currently being rewritten by MMP, since there are some holes in the rules.
D2.6 ENEMY AFV: A vehicle cannot voluntarily stop or end its MPh in Motion in an enemy AFV’s hex (whether Known or not) unless it can do so out of that AFV’s LOS (i.e., while Bypassing a hexside opposite that of the DEFENDER’s Bypass AFV), or unless it can, at the moment and position of entry into that hex, attack that AFV (regardless of its To Hit possibility) and be capable of destroying or shocking it with an Original TK or IFT DR of 5 (using a non-Depletable ammo type available to the vehicle). A vehicle thus barred from remaining in an AFV’s hex may not attempt ESB in that hex, and may check if VBM is allowed out of that hex prior to attempting VBM (2.3), if the vehicle still end its MPh in the hex it is immediately turned into a wreck as if eliminated in CC.
This alter the D2.6 rule so that you can't stop in an enemy AFV's location "involuntarily" with ESB (thus restricting an enemy AFV to fire out of his hex).
Based on actual events, destroying a good game with ahistorical game mechanics.
If one of the SSR's should be called "grudgy", this is the one. I can agree on that.
However, it still is a good rule.
Conclusion
I am happy that these things are discussed. If I have the time I may discuss this further, but only if the debate is respectful and friendly. Don't forget that we are all living in the same, tiny nerd basket.
These rules are meant to easen up the burden of the Round and Tournament Directors. As much as possible I want things to be clear. The fewer questions I get during a tournament, the better. The fewer questions the attendee have about the tournament after reading all information, the better.
I shuld also say that this is the first time that someone have questioned the SSR's since ever. I love input, either if it's bad or good, but somewhere there has to be rules (we just love rules, don't we?
)
Roll low,
/Andreas Carlsson
