Grudge Rules as Tournament Rules

[Pitman]

Today, having read here about the weird dice rules at the Arnhem ASL tournament, I went to the tourney's website to read those rules. However, once there, I discovered that the rules imposed for this tournament were chock full of "grudge" rules as well.

For those unfamiliar with the term, a "grudge" rule is a rule imposed--typically by a third-party scenario designer--onto a scenario or a group of scenarios not because the particular situation being simulated requires such a rule for situational flavor, accuracy or balance but because the designer dislikes/hates an official ASL rule and wants to "fix" it in his scenario(s). An example of a grudge rule might be that all MMCs other than crews that fire an HMG do so with a penalty; it's imposed because the rule-creator does not like the fact that in ASL (except for the Japanese) any old squad can fire an HMG as well as a trained crew could.

"Grudge" rules are irritating because they are a back-door way to force players to play by the grudgy person's vision of ASL rather than playing ASL as envisioned by its designers and maintainers.

I haven't exactly made a career of reading ASL tournament rules, but I don't remember previously coming across a tournament (rather than an ASL product) implementing "grudge" rules on its attendees.

The "grudge" rules mandated here, described in one document as "Tournament SSR," include (but are not limited to) the prohibition of kindling, the substitution of new FT TK#s, prohibiting vehicle crews from gaining control of terrain, forcing the recall of unarmed vehicles with no MMC passengers, and prohibiting Snap Shots in certain circumstances.

I confess I was shocked to discover these rules among the other tournament rules.

 

[Sparafucil3]

My only real problem with tournament rules is when there are dice rules and the TD leaves it up to the individual players to enforce said rules rather than doing his job and enforcing it himself. This puts the player into the position of being the bad guy rather than the TD who put the rule in place.

The rest I don't mind as long as they are published in advance. I can see why they might do it for balance issues assuming they have play tested everything. Having been to tournaments all over the world, I have run into various flavors of these and they all seem to work out in the end.

Just don't make me be the bad guy. -- jim

 

[Mister T]

Each Tournament Director decides whether he wants to have amendments to his liking. People attending tournaments are not forced at gunpoint to attend. If people don't like these rules, they simply don't attend. And looking at the attendance of Arnhem, it was a success, actually the largest attendance at a tournament in Europe for a long time.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

IMHO, the problem with house rules, or specific tournament rules, arises when you travel. After learning tactics using your particular house rules, honing your play style, when you travel elsewhere you won't be playing the same game as everyone else. You use a house rule that prohibits vehicle crews from gaining control? Expect to be surprised when someone else uses a vehicle crew to gain control, and they won't abide by your house rule prohibiting it.

When I see extensive house rules being imposed at a tournament, I immediately think that I'll be at a disadvantage. The locals have played with these house rules for years, and know the new tactics required and the way it affects the balances of the scenarios on the tournament list. I don't.

 

[Mister T]

The locals have played with these house rules for years, and know the new tactics required and the way it affects the balances of the scenarios on the tournament list. I don't.

In Europe, most of the time "the locals" are only 10-20% of those attending.

 

[Blaze]

There is ONLY one house rule I use. During FTF play if you knock over a stack of and expose an opponents Concealed unit(s). It's a free sniper activation. Promotes safe play and keeping your paws off the other player's pieces.

But yeah "grudge rules" detract from the game. I saw the HMG rules before. I served 13 years in the Army and never was on a .50cal crew. (if there is such a thing) but was exposed them enough to use the damn thing. Heck, I could even set the headspace and timing with the go-nogo key. Now, if I strolled up to a artillery piece I would definitely be doing the Ned Beatty thing from the movie 1941. My point is most grudge rules are subjective to begin with.
COWTRA

 

[Pitman]

My only real problem with tournament rules is when there are dice rules and the TD leaves it up to the individual players to enforce said rules rather than doing his job and enforcing it himself. This puts the player into the position of being the bad guy rather than the TD who put the rule in place.

The rest I don't mind as long as they are published in advance. I can see why they might do it for balance issues assuming they have play tested everything. Having been to tournaments all over the world, I have run into various flavors of these and they all seem to work out in the end.

Just don't make me be the bad guy. -- jim

There basically shouldn't be dice rules for a tournament, imo, but that's a different subject than the one I bring up here.

 

[Pitman]

Each Tournament Director decides whether he wants to have amendments to his liking. People attending tournaments are not forced at gunpoint to attend. If people don't like these rules, they simply don't attend. And looking at the attendance of Arnhem, it was a success, actually the largest attendance at a tournament in Europe for a long time.

That's a silly response. That is like responding to consumer criticism of a product by saying, "Well, you can always go buy some other product." It's an invalid response because it is designed to divert away from the criticism.

 

[Sparafucil3]

There basically shouldn't be dice rules for a tournament, imo, but that's a different subject than the one I bring up here.

If you go back to Arnhem rules, there are dice rules. IMO, its a grudge rule. Someone saying the only proper way to play ASL is with their special dice.

What I really hate about is the reluctance to enforce it. It's the TD's rule, walk around and make sure people are complying. JMO, YMMV. -- jim

 

[bendizoid]

Today, having read here about the weird dice rules at the Arnhem ASL tournament, I went to the tourney's website to read those rules. However, once there, I discovered that the rules imposed for this tournament were chock full of "grudge" rules as well.

For those unfamiliar with the term, a "grudge" rule is a rule imposed--typically by a third-party scenario designer--onto a scenario or a group of scenarios not because the particular situation being simulated requires such a rule for situational flavor, accuracy or balance but because the designer dislikes/hates an official ASL rule and wants to "fix" it in his scenario(s). An example of a grudge rule might be that all MMCs other than crews that fire an HMG do so with a penalty; it's imposed because the rule-creator does not like the fact that in ASL (except for the Japanese) any old squad can fire an HMG as well as a trained crew could.

"Grudge" rules are irritating because they are a back-door way to force players to play by the grudgy person's vision of ASL rather than playing ASL as envisioned by its designers and maintainers.

I haven't exactly made a career of reading ASL tournament rules, but I don't remember previously coming across a tournament (rather than an ASL product) implementing "grudge" rules on its attendees.

The "grudge" rules mandated here, described in one document as "Tournament SSR," include (but are not limited to) the prohibition of kindling, the substitution of new FT TK#s, prohibiting vehicle crews from gaining control of terrain, forcing the recall of unarmed vehicles with no MMC passengers, and prohibiting Snap Shots in certain circumstances.

I confess I was shocked to discover these rules among the other tournament rules.

Albany has a FT tank ‘grudge’ rule and I like it.

 

[Pitman]

Albany has a FT tank ‘grudge’ rule and I like it.

What do you like about forcing other players playing other players to play by an unofficial rule?

 

[bendizoid]

What do you like about forcing other players playing other players to play by an unofficial rule?

I don’t force anybody to do anything, I just think the rule makes sense.

 

[Mister T]

That's a silly response. That is like responding to consumer criticism of a product by saying, "Well, you can always go buy some other product." It's an invalid response because it is designed to divert away from the criticism.

That's an equally silly argument. You have to tell us rule by rule why you don't like them. Having a different rule does not make it invalid per se. Especially as this is not about changing the rules, but adapting them to the realities of tournament play in the context of a private event no one is forced to attend.

 

[STAVKA]

Swedish/Arnhem
Tournament SSR
1. KINDLING IS NA: Kindling (B25.11) is NA, unless allowed by SSR.
2. BUILDING-RUBBLE: When a building Location/hex becomes rubble it is still considered a building Location/hex for VCs and gain Control purposes.
3. OBA: When attempting Battery Access for an OBA Module and no more than one black and/or red chit(s) have been permanently removed from the Draw Pile and the second permanently-removed red chit is drawn, return it to the Draw Pile instead, and that ends the Observer’s OBA actions for that Player Turn (i.e., the second red chit can only be removed from the Draw Pile if at least two black chits have been permanently removed from the Draw Pile for that OBA Module). An Original Contact/Maintenance DR of 12 does not cause the breakdown of a Radio or elimination of a Field Phone, although an Original DR of 12 does cause the loss of Radio-/Phone-Contact.
4. FLAMETHROWERS: The Basic TK# for the AFV Flamethrower is 6 at one hex and 4 at two hexes and 3 at three hex range. The Basic TK# for an Infantry FT is 6 at one hex and 4 at two hex range. Modifications of the Basic TK# apply.
5. SNAP SHOT: Snap Shots are NA across Walls/Hedges, nor across a Crest line that is Higher than the shooter, and not across buildings, woods, or similar terrain.
6. D2.6 ENEMY AFV: A vehicle cannot voluntarily stop or end its MPh in Motion in an enemy AFV ́ s hex (whether Known or not) unless it can do so out of that AFV ́ s LOS (i.e., while Bypassing a hexside opposite that of the DEFENDER ́ s Bypass AFV), or unless it can, at the moment and position of entry into that hex, attack that AFV (regardless of its To Hit possibility) and be capable of destroying or shocking it with an Original TK or IFT DR of 5 (using a non-Depletable ammo type available to the vehicle). A vehicle thus barred from remaining in an AFV ́ s hex may not attempt ESB in that hex, and may check if VBM is allowed out of that hex prior to attempting VBM (2.3), if the vehicle still end its MPh in the hex it is immediately turned into a wreck as if eliminated in CC.
7. VEHICLES: Vehicle Crews can never gain Control of Terrain. Unarmed Vehicle with no MMC Passengers is immediately Recalled.

 

[carlsson]

I just saw this thread and (as the TD of the Arnhem ASL Tournament) I may response eventually. Meanwhile I say; "Don't worry, be happy".

 

[Pitman]

That's an equally silly argument. You have to tell us rule by rule why you don't like them. Having a different rule does not make it invalid per se. Especially as this is not about changing the rules, but adapting them to the realities of tournament play in the context of a private event no one is forced to attend.

Again, not a valid argument. Nothing about those rules are about "adapting them to the realities of tournament play." [the ones I listed; there is one rule I did not list which is mostly a grudge rule but does arguably have some relevance specifically to tournament play, so I give that one the benefit of the doubt] And I don't have to say one word about whether I like or don't like any of the grudge rules, because that doesn't matter: they are grudge rules , not official ASL rules. I wouldn't want any grudge rules in a tournament, regardless of whether or not I agreed with them. And whether people are forced to attend or not is completely irrelevant, a rhetorical trick used to avoid having to address the issue of including grudge rules in a tournament.

 

[Blaze]

Someone saying the only proper way to play ASL is with their special dice.

AND this is the reason I don't do Tournaments. It makes my head hurt ...

 

[MajorDomo]

I played in the Arnhem tourney and though the tourney rules worked well. Some of these Tournament SSRs are suited to smaller size of tournament scenarios.

Here are my thoughts:

A. The no kindling rule - once saw a player turn a grain field into a burning cauldron, winning as his VC gun was unapproachable. I wish more scenario designers added this SSR, WHEN appropriate.

B. Building rubbled is still a building for VC purposes only. Seems reaonable to me. I once lost a scenarios when my opponent ran five of his tincan AFVs into multihex, wooden buildings. His second "1" made the multihex building VC unattainable, great fun!

C. Pleva OBA rule - I cannot remember the last game I played where this rule was not used.

D. The snap shop rule - Not a biggie for me as rarely happens.

E. FT suffers DRMs on TKs vs AFVs - This is a grudge SSR, but makes sense. Once smoked a Tiger, then ran a WASP next to the now defensless Tiger, and easily killed it as my FT TK was unaffected. Needed to take a shower after that, so willing to play this whenever my opponent is amicable.

F. Vehicle crew control of buildings - Many scenarios SSR this, exempting carriers which actually did dismount to fight as infantry.

G. Umarmed vehicles must exit - Who did not enjoy several trucks charging enemy infantry for 1-1 truck overruns? Me , among several other ASL regular opponents!

H. Precision dice required if called for by opponent - I do not care much about dice issues. But, like politics and religion, it seems to be hotly disputed issue. I did bring precision dice to Arnhem, but never had an opponent who cared which dice we used, whether shared or not... As for Jim's point about being the bad guy to enforce this rule, well if somebody pulled out some old wooden, chipped dice, I would probably say nyet and still sleep well that night.

The Arnhem tourney Swedes ran as well organized tourney as I have participated. Coming in 3rd may have clouded my judgement, but I liked the Tournament SSRs.

To each his own.
Rich

 

[bendizoid]

I’ve been to about 100 tournaments and never had a problem with the rules and enjoyed every one of them (the tournaments that is).

 

[Actionjick]

We weren't into optional rules, house rules and I wasn't even aware of grudge rules. We played strictly by the book because that was what we expected tournaments to do.

There are only two tournament rules I remember from Oktoberfest.

Fish's mulligan where your first loss didn't count as a loss for you but still as a win for your opponent. He was in the Post Office golf league back then. I didn't think it was a great idea but figured let's try it. That rule was only used that year.


In '92 to qualify for the Weekend tournament you had to play Guards Counterattack. Obviously to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Stalingrad. We both thought this was a fitting tribute to the scenario and the battle.