Ground Level Bldng control by AFV

Houlie

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A wild J43 VASL end-game that we thought was done is...NOT! Help -- NRBH.

Situation: I need to contol a single-hex/ground-level building for the win. I indicated I would drive my fully-functioning AFV into this unoccupied building hex controlled by my opponent. The AFV would NOT use bypass.

In discussing this rule with another VASLite a couple days ago, our understanding of the rule was that the AFV can control the single-hex/single-story building while occupying the hex, but if it leaves the hex/building it reverts to the previous "controller". In this case my opponent.

And yes, I need to be sure the AFV doesn't fall into the cellar.

Any help woulf be appreciated!
 

Jazz

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Houlie said:
A wild J43 VASL end-game that we thought was done is...NOT! Help -- NRBH.

Situation: I need to contol a single-hex/ground-level building for the win. I indicated I would drive my fully-functioning AFV into this unoccupied building hex controlled by my opponent. The AFV would NOT use bypass.

In discussing this rule with another VASLite a couple days ago, our understanding of the rule was that the AFV can control the single-hex/single-story building while occupying the hex, but if it leaves the hex/building it reverts to the previous "controller". In this case my opponent.

And yes, I need to be sure the AFV doesn't fall into the cellar.

Any help woulf be appreciated!
I would say no, you can't. The building control definition (A26.14) calls out an MMC as having to establish/take control of a building. Please note that building control and location control are two distinctly different critters.
 

asler

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Jazz said:
I would say no, you can't. The building control definition (A26.14) calls out an MMC as having to establish/take control of a building. Please note that building control and location control are two distinctly different critters.
Agreed. Also, A26.11 clearly states that "A vehicle (or its PRC) can never gain control of a building, but may gain control of its Location/hex as per 26.12. Note (as Jazz pointed out) that location control and building control are two distinctly different issues. Check the VC to clarify what is needed, location control or building control.

Chris
 

Houlie

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Jazz said:
I would say no, you can't. The building control definition (A26.14) calls out an MMC as having to establish/take control of a building. Please note that building control and location control are two distinctly different critters.
I think that's where it was confusing and still remains a question mark for me is that the building has only one location. Anyone have other thoughts or interpretations?
 

asler

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Houlie said:
I think that's where it was confusing and still remains a question mark for me is that the building has only one location. Anyone have other thoughts or interpretations?
A location is simply a level within the whole hex. A location can have multiple seperate places (e.g. open ground and foxhole, road and orchard, building & woods. etc.) however, controlling a location does not always mean controlling each place and the example of this is building control. As I noted previously, A26.11 is very clear that a vehicle cannot control a building location. Even if he is parked in it. If the VC called for building hex then you'd have control of it, if it calls for building location then you do not have control of it unless control has been gained by a MMC.

Sorry for the bad news...

Chris
 

Jazz

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Houlie said:
I think that's where it was confusing and still remains a question mark for me is that the building has only one location. Anyone have other thoughts or interpretations?
If there are, they are incorrect. Building control and location control are two very different things. As was stated above, a vehicle can never control a building, even though it can control a location.
 

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Jazz said:
I would say no, you can't. The building control definition (A26.14) calls out an MMC as having to establish/take control of a building. Please note that building control and location control are two distinctly different critters.
Agreed. See 26.14 Bldg. control. Says armed, g.o. MMC. Makes no mention of vehicular bldg control.

To make matters worse there is also hex control, which a vehicle can potentially control, if there is only a single location in the hex.

So the AFV can have control of both the location and the hex, but still not have control of the building.

I think this is whacky, and if an afv controls the hex and the only location (which happens to be a bldg) it should be considered in control of said building. But hey boots are better than treads at rooting out the last elements so maybe the rules are trying to cover some reality argument. I find it extra whacky that one can have building control, but not control all the locations of the building. hehe
 

Houlie

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Dang it. I'll have to go back to my emails to see, but maybe I misread his note. That was probably what happened.

Thanks all!
 

Jazz

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Victor said:
not have control of the building.

I think this is whacky, and if an afv controls the hex and the only location (which happens to be a bldg) it should be considered in control of said building. But hey boots are better than treads at rooting out the last elements so maybe the rules are trying to cover some reality argument. I find it extra whacky that one can have building control, but not control all the locations of the building. hehe
Well, maybe it seems wacky, but it is essentially a knob that allows the scenario designer to adjust the VC for balance. It might seem like splitting hairs, but it's amazing just how much you can adjust balance by requiring a MMC to be the sole occupant of a building.

Another prime example is the location control required by RB. If the German wants to win a scenario (not as big a thing in a CG as in a scenario) he's got to detail MMC to go around and tag a lot of stone building locations, which with no quarter means they're going up & down a lot of stairs....
 

Houlie

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More J43 end-game rules drama!

Houlie said:
Dang it. I'll have to go back to my emails to see, but maybe I misread his note. That was probably what happened.
Hmm. I think I now remember his point more clearly as I have reread the VCs and the RB refernece since I got home.

First, the J43 VCs say: "The British win at game end if they control >=6 buildings on/between hexrows O and W." (i.e., Germans only need to deny control).

So, I don't have to control the hex, just prevent the Brits from doing so. Now look at A26.11, second sentence of third paragraph:

"A non-bypassing armed vehicle (or PRC) prevents the opponent from gaining control of the Location/hex/building it occupies. An armed vehicle in bypass of a building prevents the opponent from gaining control of the Location/hex, but not from gaining control of the building."

So in other words, I prevent him from gaining control, but neither do I gain it. So based on the VCs, this building is not counted as in his control and since it is the sixth building, he would not have enough buildings to fulfill the VCs.

What says the peanut gallery??
 

Brian W

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Houlie said:
What says the peanut gallery??
You are right on; the only quibble I could think of is that if the building was in your set up area and your opponant never gained control of the building, then the building has always been in your control. A player controls all locations/buildings/hexes in his set up area at the start of a scenario.
 

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Houlie said:
Hmm. I think I now remember his point more clearly as I have reread the VCs and the RB refernece since I got home.

First, the J43 VCs say: "The British win at game end if they control >=6 buildings on/between hexrows O and W." (i.e., Germans only need to deny control).

So, I don't have to control the hex, just prevent the Brits from doing so. Now look at A26.11, second sentence of third paragraph:

"A non-bypassing armed vehicle (or PRC) prevents the opponent from gaining control of the Location/hex/building it occupies. An armed vehicle in bypass of a building prevents the opponent from gaining control of the Location/hex, but not from gaining control of the building."

So in other words, I prevent him from gaining control, but neither do I gain it. So based on the VCs, this building is not counted as in his control and since it is the sixth building, he would not have enough buildings to fulfill the VCs.

What says the peanut gallery??
What's confusing me is the use of "I" and "he" and not clearly defining who has control when. So, in generic pronounless terms, here are the possible situations:


Situation 1 [your original question]:

a. Empty building in the German set-up area. Building Control = GERMAN.

b. British player enters otherwise empty building with Armed, Good Order Infantry MMC. Building Control = BRITISH.

c. British player exits building, leaving building empty. Building Control = BRITISH.

d. German player moves armed vehicle into building (not bypass) and parks vehicle in building. Building Control = BRITISH, since a Vehicle cannot gain control of a building per A26.11 3rd paragraph.


Situation 2 [the restated question]:

a. Empty building in the German set-up area. Building Control = GERMAN.

b. German player moves armed vehicle into otherwise empty building and parks vehicle in (not bypass of) building. Building Control = GERMAN.

c. British player enters vehicle-occupied building with Armed, Good Order Infantry MMC. German Vehicle parked in building prevents British player from gaining Building Control per A26.11. Building Control = GERMAN.


Hope that makes it more clear.
 
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Houlie

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Mike Owens said:
Situation 1 [your original question]:

a. Empty building in the German set-up area. Building Control = GERMAN.

b. British player enters otherwise empty building with Armed, Good Order Infantry MMC. Building Control = BRITISH.

c. British player exits building, leaving building empty. Building Control = BRITISH.

d. German player moves armed vehicle into building (not bypass) and parks vehicle in building. Building Control = BRITISH, since a Vehicle cannot gain control of a building per A26.11 3rd paragraph.

Hope that makes it more clear.
Ha! Very nicely put, Mike. It does make it more clear and unfortunately for me it is Situation 1 that is the case here! Wow. OK, I think I have it figured out now. Wheeee!

Yo, Rob! We need to finish this one we thought was done. Send me an email or pm.

Thank goodness for VASL -- we can pick up where we left off.
 

Robin Reeve

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Now, do try to enter the building with your AFV.
And HOPE it will fall down in the cellar.
And HOPE the crew will survive.
You'll have the MMC needed to control your building...
cf. B 23.41
This is ASL logics... :laugh:
 
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