GMT Combat Commander--ASL Lite???

[Aries]

"PS, I have no intention of buying this rip-off. ASL is still the best game ever!"

At one time I might have even joined you in that sentiment. Now, hmm I own ASL already, I'm open to new products. All they need be, is properly made, and that's it.

Doesn't hurt MY bottom line if something looks smells and tastes like ASL.

 

[L'Emperor]

Doesn't hurt MY bottom line if something looks smells and tastes like ASL.

Does it PLAY like ASL?

What's your bottom line? Mine is time. With the amount I have invested in this beast, I have grown to respect all the advatages / disavantages of ASL. If you have more time than me (which you almost certainly have)... well, let me know how it turns out and I'll consider it. Otherwise, I'll skip ATS / CC / ASLSK for now. My 'expanding' will be with the devil I know not in trying the possiblility of finding something better (IMHO unlikely in a playable, 'amature' game system). Better to work within this sytem than to find a new one at this time. (It's barely broke so correction is in adjustment, not abandoning it!). Good Luck.

 

[thedrake]

I am not looking to get into this game,just thought it looked like quite a few of the concepts+playtest graphics were derived from ASL.

Althought I think the maps are not bad (look very similar to CH-style ASL maps.)
Would be cool if they matched up with any of the ASL maps for additional playing area.Wonder if GMT sells them separately????

MD

 

[Aries]

Does it PLAY like ASL?

What's your bottom line? Mine is time. With the amount I have invested in this beast, I have grown to respect all the advatages / disavantages of ASL. If you have more time than me (which you almost certainly have)... well, let me know how it turns out and I'll consider it. Otherwise, I'll skip ATS / CC / ASLSK for now. My 'expanding' will be with the devil I know not in trying the possiblility of finding something better (IMHO unlikely in a playable, 'amature' game system). Better to work within this sytem than to find a new one at this time. (It's barely broke so correction is in adjustment, not abandoning it!). Good Luck.

Partly its a case of I want a new treat, what do I buy?

Due I buy the obscenely expensive new ASL thingy, or go for something fresh and unique?

As for ATS, well if CH didn't have a reputation for next to no playtesting of their product, they might appeal more. Then again, ATS is not nearly different enough, and is not exactly cheaper enough in the end.

I doubt anything will even exceed in throughness of simulation, what ASL does. So now the only option is to go for same level of fun factor, at lesser expense, with a new twist.

At the moment though, I have my eye on getting a bunch of Tom's new cards that he does for Up Front.

 

[mkirschenbaum]

Due I buy the obscenely expensive new ASL thingy, or go for something fresh and unique?

Once out of pre-order Combat Commander will be priced at $79. Don't know if that's "obscenely expensive" by your standards or not but it's about what you'll pay for an ASL core module and a good deal more than a HASL, action pack, journal, or most TPP.

It's worth noting that Combat Commander includes no armor and the designer has no plans for it. An ASL killer it's not.

By all accounts this is Rodger MacGowan's baby. He saw the game demoed, played it, and liked it. It gives GMT an entry into the tactical gaming market which has been an obvious lack in their product line until now. They have a loyal customer base who will snap it up. Their house magazine, C3i, will be a natural venue for scenarios and other expansions. Combat Commander will do well out of the gate. But people will start to clamor for armor. And other nationalities. And other theaters of the war. And special rules for campaigns and historical situations. Sound familiar? Whether it has staying power, time will tell.

 

[Aries]

No armour?

That will be as fun as an icecube in hell

79 bucks? Well ok for a self contained need only one purchase product.

When ATS first came out it "might" have managed to be a self contained item. But it has done a nice job of being a lame excuse modular ASL wanna be that has really only appeared to have one objective, put money in the pockets of CH.

Although, as loathe to admit it as I am (although my original reasons seem to have faded), who can blame a person for wanting to make a buck (as CH appears to be interested in doing).

Then again, looking at Panzer Grenadier, and it seems to have become quite the inflated product line.
I used to liken it to Panzer Leader, but at least with Panzer Leader, the gamer doesn't require a dozen modules. Maybe that's just because it never was given the chance though.

ASL though, is a system, and it's not really accurate to say it is the price of any one module. Until you have the boards, the rules, and two opposing sides, you have nothing. Thus, ASL's price tag is actually Rules + Maps + BV at the very least. That's no small price tag.

Saying one can buy an ASL Starter is not adequate to defend against this position. Because the ASL Starters are really just paid for demos. It isn't ASL any more than a set of original Squad Leader modules is ASL. You ain't playing ASL, until you actually possess it.

For that reason, I place a minimum purchase of ASL at 175 bucks US, plus shipping, plus whatever your thresshold is for getting any boards not contained in BV.
In some respects, I can thus say ASL is a 200+ dollar wargame (prices lifted right off MMP's page as of this post's writing).

 

[Wodin]

Combat Commander is 100 feet a hex. So its not even the same scale.

My interest diminished after that.

The no armour doesnt bother that much though.

 

[Dr Zaius]

ASL itself borrows many ideas from earlier boardgames, because it's hard to find a game that is 'revolutionary' rather than 'evolutionary.' ASL's counters and artwork also resemble a number of earlier games as well.

J.R.R. Tolkien practically invented contemporary fantasy mythology as we know it. Nevertheless, Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs have become the basis for thousands of products, including the legendary Dungeons & Dragons game. Does that make D&D a "wannabe" or "ripoff" of Lord of the Rings? Not really. Although the designers certainly borrowed heavily from Tolkien's ideas, they added their own unique flavor to the mix and came up with a whole new product.

ATS is similar to ASL in some ways, yet not so similar in others. The same could be said of Lock 'n Load, Panzer Grenadier, and even some of Avalon Hill's other titles. By hook or crook, a lot of these basic concepts and ideas have become staples of the wargaming hobby--and that's a good thing in many ways! ASL has had an impact on the wargaming genre as a whole, and I'll bet the original designers would be quite pleased with that legacy.

 

[mkirschenbaum]

For that reason, I place a minimum purchase of ASL at 175 bucks US, plus shipping, plus whatever your thresshold is for getting any boards not contained in BV.
In some respects, I can thus say ASL is a 200+ dollar wargame (prices lifted right off MMP's page as of this post's writing).

Sure. And while that's not for the impulse buyer it's perfectly competitive with other high end games like Streets of Stalingrad, Wacht Am Rhein II, and A World at War. And once you get up into those price ranges, ASL's being a "system" as opposed to a single game strikes me as a distinct advantage. Near endless replayability, even with just BV3. Throw in Valor of the Guards once it's out and so long as you don't mind the Eastern front you're set for years and years.

 

[Aries]

If I had 200 bucks and a burning urge to buy a wargame, chances are I would invest in the last evolutionary step Third Reich went to as A World at War.

But at 175 bucks US, and the fact I already own A3R, I can't seem to master the need for it.

My wallet pain thresshold these days seems to be about 50 bucks.

Although last year's christmas season was a big success for the family.
If I can repeat it for 2006, I'll have 240 bucks waiting on a decent need.
Then again, I am likely to go with a bunch of new clothes

 

[Pitman]

Don, what concepts do you think Squad Leader borrowed? So far as I can recall, it was the first game of its type, and most aspects of it were revolutionary, from the "actual representation" mapboard to the handling of units.

Matt, is that true about the armor? I hadn't noticed that. That really boggles the mind--how many people would really get into an infantry only tactical WW2 combat system? That seems really strange.

Re the maps: the scale difference is minor and not important. Since the terrain types are mostly just copies from ASL, the maps could easily be ported into ASL, I think. The question is why someone would want to. At least so far, the depictions shown do not suggest anything not already seen on ASL maps, plus the large hex size/small map combination means that scenarios on those maps would suffer from many of the same limitations of DASL scenarios--little room for maneuver.

 

[mkirschenbaum]

Matt, is that true about the armor? I hadn't noticed that. That really boggles the mind--how many people would really get into an infantry only tactical WW2 combat system? That seems really strange.

Here's what designer Chad Jensen said on CSW when asked if it would have vehicles:

Yes and no.

NO because we tried vehicles several times early on and it just didn't fit the scale and rules length I was shooting for. So "Combat Commander" is infantry combat (and weapons; and some close-support type guns like the 75mm IG18).

YES because I am currently in the early design stages of an Armor version of CC that is intended to be a stand-alone game (series?) using the same basic structure as CC. The Armor game will likely be a bit more detailed and roughly double or triple the scale (so 75-100 meters per hex). I am envisioning it as 90% Armor and 10% simplified infantry support.

The folks who have had a chance to play Combat Commander to date don't miss the vehicles - the game still has tons of options and replayability and the "feel" of a small-scale WWII battle without them.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me from a game design standpoint. Probably makes a lot more sense from a marketing standpoint, as anyone who gets "into" the system will feel compelled to acquire two parallel, expandable, but mutually incompatible product lines. That's gotta be good for sales.

 

[Aries]

Don, what concepts do you think Squad Leader borrowed? So far as I can recall, it was the first game of its type, and most aspects of it were revolutionary, from the "actual representation" mapboard to the handling of units.

Matt, is that true about the armor? I hadn't noticed that. That really boggles the mind--how many people would really get into an infantry only tactical WW2 combat system? That seems really strange.

Re the maps: the scale difference is minor and not important. Since the terrain types are mostly just copies from ASL, the maps could easily be ported into ASL, I think. The question is why someone would want to. At least so far, the depictions shown do not suggest anything not already seen on ASL maps, plus the large hex size/small map combination means that scenarios on those maps would suffer from many of the same limitations of DASL scenarios--little room for maneuver.

I know that SL was predated by something earlier, but the name escapes me. I think "Soldiers" sounds vaguely correct. I just recall SL being so much better.

 

[Pitman]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

[Dr Zaius]

Don, what concepts do you think Squad Leader borrowed? So far as I can recall, it was the first game of its type, and most aspects of it were revolutionary, from the "actual representation" mapboard to the handling of units.

Wargamers were gaming on topographic maps over 200 years prior to anyone involved with ASL even being born (although it generally wasn't considered a hobby activity). A variety of different types of topographic maps were used -- some quite complicated. Everything from painted wooden blocks, miniatures, to flags were used to represent units.

The idea of hex-based gaming also pre-dates ASL or Squad Leader, nor did Charles S. Roberts "invent it." The concept was borrowed from companies that were working with the military.

The concept of using cardboard counters was around before Squad Leader was ever created. Indeed, Roberts himself used them in other games -- Tactics, for example.

None of what I wrote above diminishes ASL's contributions to the hobby at all. I think Squad Leader/Advanced Squad Leader probably does qualify as a 'revolutionary' design, but it still borrowed some of its basic concepts from other games.

But debating who came up with which particular wargaming concept first is of no particular interest to me. What is of interest to me is the notion that other hex-based boardgames of military combat in some way "rip off" or diminish the community because they make use of many of the same basic ideas and concepts as ASL.

People argue over whether Doom was the first FPS (first-person perspective) game to grace the PC. Other games soon appeared on the market that very closely emulated Doom in many respects. But who really cares? The only thing that matters is that today's gamer has a growing number of excellent FPS games to choose from.

I think it's fair to say that ASL is a great wargame. I also think it is fair to say it would be a crying shame if ASL represents the final word on wargames of this scale.

This article is interesting: http://www.hmgs.org/history.htm

 

[Corporal Kindel]

If I had 200 bucks and a burning urge to buy a wargame, chances are I would invest in the last evolutionary step Third Reich went to as A World at War.

But at 175 bucks US, and the fact I already own A3R, I can't seem to master the need for it.

My wallet pain thresshold these days seems to be about 50 bucks.

Games are a lot cheaper than most other hobbies though. Take golf, one can easily spend $800 on just one single golf club. With ASL as least you don't have to pay green fees in order to play, outside of tournaments obviously. But OTOH, ASL doesn't have million dollor first prize (or whatever it is now) tournaments. ASLOK isn't comparable to the U.S open.

I always liked Third Reich & A3R (TR was the first wargame I ever bought), and has always been my second favorite wargame behind ASL. I'm glad I was able to pick up The Rising Sun while AH was still in existence, last time I saw a copy of RS, it went for over $200 on eBay.

I think it's fair to say that ASL is a great wargame. I also think it is fair to say it would be a crying shame if ASL represents the final word on wargames of this scale.

Hopefully, ASL will remain the final word on wargames of this scale, cuz I'm certainly not going to try and assimilate another 200+ page rulebook. And, if all the ASL opponents should suddenly migrate to some hypothetical new & better wargame of this scale, then they can have it.

I'll just stick with ASL .. it may not be the final word, but it'll be the final word for me.

 

[Aries]

"Take golf, one can easily spend $800 on just one single golf club."

EASILY!!!??

I think you might have picked the wrong word hehe.

We all have our expensive indulgences, but I think an 800 dollar golf club would get me killed (wife might even kill me with the club ).

 

[Pitman]

Wargamers were gaming on topographic maps over 200 years prior to anyone involved with ASL even being born (although it generally wasn't considered a hobby activity). A variety of different types of topographic maps were used -- some quite complicated. Everything from painted wooden blocks, miniatures, to flags were used to represent units.

Come on, Don. First of all, you are conflating military kriegspiels with recreational wargaming (which began circa H.G. Wells' "Little Wars." Second, what you describe has absolutely no relationship to modern board wargaming, which began in 1958.

The idea of hex-based gaming also pre-dates ASL or Squad Leader, nor did Charles S. Roberts "invent it." The concept was borrowed from companies that were working with the military.

Charles S. Roberts used squares with Tactics and Gettysburg. However, this has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

The concept of using cardboard counters was around before Squad Leader was ever created. Indeed, Roberts himself used them in other games -- Tactics, for example.

Again, you are not dealing with the subject at hand, but instead discussing wargame universals. What intellectual debts does SL as a World War II tactical wargame owe, and if there are any, to whom? I contend that there are few if any.

 

[wrongway149]

What intellectual debts does SL as a World War II tactical wargame owe, and if there are any, to whom? I contend that there are few if any.

Funny how the computer games copy the ASL scenarios right down to the title.

 

[Dr Zaius]

Again, you are not dealing with the subject at hand, but instead discussing wargame universals.

You're quite correct, I am doing just that to some extent.

I should add that I don't know anything about GMT's Combat Commander game, so my comments should be viewed in a very general sense.

But again, I really don't want to get deeply into whom invented which gaming ideas or concepts, as this wasn't what I was ultimately driving at. The point I am attempting to make is that there is plenty of room in this hobby for more than one wargame design at this scale--plenty!

Allow me to provide this crude analogy. Firestone makes a very good 14" steel belted radial tire. It will do just about anything a tire of this size should do. Michelan also makes a very similar tire for nearly the exact same vehicles. So do several other companies. Who "invented" the steel belted radial? Who invented the tread patterns? And who ultimately cares? Not me. All I know is that, at least from where I sit, it is a very good thing that consumers have a choice between so many "similar" products.

God forbid the day comes when there is only one "right" wargame for any scale or time period. That will be the day I leave this hobby and find another. If you like a particular game--great! Play it, have fun with it, and sing its praises to as many people as possible. But there are far too many grognards hanging around talking about how "this" game is the "final word" and anything else is a "wannabe," "ripoff," or whatever. This attitude puzzles me.

And I don't care if the competition out performs ASL any more. As long as I win that's all that matters to me. Sound selfish?

It doesn't sound selfish; it sounds like a consumer.