GLORY & GRIEF 2 ASL Vietnam Variant Module TWO

CoryC70

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Low intensity irregular/guerrilla warfare. i don't think many actions in Vietnam would be well represented by the WW2 'meat & potatoes fight for an objective' type scenarios. Yes you could use ASL to do it, i just don't think the system is a good model for it.

A strategic or skirmish level game would be better suited for Vietnam.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Low intensity irregular/guerrilla warfare. i don't think many actions in Vietnam would be well represented by the WW2 'meat & potatoes fight for an objective' type scenarios. Yes you could use ASL to do it, i just don't think the system is a good model for it.

A strategic or skirmish level game would be better suited for Vietnam.
Why does ASL have "partisan" counters in it? :D I agree the game would not model low intensity warfare well, but when the partisans in the Second World War came out to fight as regular troops ("high-intensity" operations), there is no reason not to depict those battles in ASL. By the same token, the Vietnam War even by the most limited definition was a hugely complex event stretching from 1965 to 1972 (the period known as "the American War" in Vietnam). It was really just one war among several between 1945 and 1975, all of which contained battles between conventional forces which would be well-represented in ASL. After Tet in 1968, for example, a heavier burden of fighting fell on conventional Communist forces given the heavy beating the Viet Cong took - they were effectively wiped out as a fighting force.

There are many myths about Vietnam that persist to this day. It wasn't all black pajamas and American draftees. The majority of U.S. soldiers to fight there were volunteers, and the number of major combat operations against "regulars" might surprise you.
 
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Michael Dorosh

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Here's one example:

Operation Lam Son 719




The method chosen by PAVN (People's Army of Viet Nam - North Vietnamese Army) to defeat the invasion was to first isolate the northern firebases by utilizing anti-aircraft artillery. The outposts would then be pounded by round-the-clock mortar, artillery, and rocket fire. Although the ARVN firebases were themselves equipped with artillery, their guns were quickly outranged by PAVN's Soviet-supplied 122mm and 130mm pieces, which simply stood off and pounded the positions at will. The defensive edge that could have been provided by the utilization of tactical B-52 bomber strikes was nullified by the close-in tactics of the communist forces. Massed ground attacks, supported by artillery and armor would then finish the job. As early as 18 February North Vietnamese forces had begun attacks by fire on Rangers North and South. On the following day the attacks shifted to Ranger North. Ground operations against the outpost were conducted by the 102nd PAVN Regiment of the 308th Division supported by Soviet-built PT-76 and T-54 tanks. The Rangers held on tenaciously throughout the night. President Thieu, oblivious to the previous nights attacks, and who was visiting I Corps headquarters at the time, advised General Lam to postpone the advance on Tchepone and to shift the focus of the operation toward the southwest. By the afternoon of the 20th, the 39th ARVN Ranger Battalion had been reduced from 500 to 323 men and its commander ordered a retreat toward Ranger South, six kilometers away. Only 109 survivors reached Ranger South by nightfall. Although more than 600 North Vietnamese troops were estimated as killed during the action, casualties in the three-day fight totaled 75 percent of the ARVN battalion.
Sounds like any AAR from the Eastern Front - tanks, artillery, desperate battles with conventional forces.
 

Blackcloud6

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I agree the game would not model low intensity warfare well, but when the partisans in the Second World War came out to fight as regular troops ("high-intensity" operations), there is no reason not to depict those battles in ASL.
Oh, I would think ASL could model "low intensity" actions well. After all, a firefight is a firefight regardless of the operational and strategic constructs the action is taking place in. The "intensity" part of war really resides at the operational and strategic levels.

Raids, cordons and searches, ambushes, etc, can all be done in ASL (and have been). They just take imagination and good VC design.
 

Blackcloud6

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Sounds like any AAR from the Eastern Front - tanks, artillery, desperate battles with conventional forces.
Yes, Vietnam was a lot more "conventional" than many people may realize, especially near the end when it became a full out combined arms force on force conventional invasion.
 
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Michael Dorosh

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Yes, Vietnam was a lot more "conventional" than many people may realize, especially near the end when it became a full out combined arms force on force convention invasion.
Good points, and additionally, the terrain was not all jungle. Just as California isn't all beach front, Vietnam had a wide diversity of terrain types. The deciduous vegetation shown in the film We Were Soldiers was criticized by some "not in the know", but dense jungle was only one of the many terrain types that American soldiers saw combat in. The entire range of ASL boards could be utilized in crafting scenarios from various locales within the battle areas of Vietnam and neighbouring countries. There was fighting in urban areas, villages, jungle, rural farmland, rice paddies, along highways and communications routes, on hilltops, in valleys. I don't know about opposed amphibious landings, but:

... the U.S. command took advantage of good intelligence to launch Operation Starlite, perhaps the greatest amphibious success of the war. Discovering that the 1st Viet Cong Regiment planned to attack the Marine enclave at Chu Lai from a coastal village 12 miles to the south, General Westmoreland directed the III Marine Amphibious Force, the chief Marine command in South Vietnam, to preempt the assault and destroy the 1,500-man enemy unit. Between 18 and 25 August, a cruiser and two destroyers poured accurate naval gunfire on the enemy concentration as the Seventh Fleet Amphibious Ready Group landed Marine units on the beach. Other elements were helicoptered inland from Iwo Jima (LPH 2) and Chu Lai. By the end of the week-long battle, the 1st Viet Cong Regiment was pushed up to the sea by three Marine and two South Vietnamese battalions and then pounded by air and naval gunfire. At the cost of 45 Marines killed and 203 wounded, the allied force inflicted 623 casualties on the enemy unit, putting it out of action for some time.
There were certainly riverine actions by the brown water navy, and opposed river crossing action in Hue during the Tet Offensive.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Patrocles

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up to $82 with 12h remaining on the bidding. hurry and get yer bids in!
:nuts:


9 Morale level for some troops! awesome!! I'm such a lame player that I need those troops in order to win a WW2 aslsk battle! :)
 
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skye88

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up to $82 with 12h remaining on the bidding. hurry and get yer bids in!
I'm such a lame player that I need those troops in order to win a WW2 aslsk battle! :)
Time to get out 124$ then, because that is what the final price was.
Sjeez, who buys this?
 

Patrocles

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Time to get out 124$ then, because that is what the final price was.
Sjeez, who buys this?
What? I put in a bid for $123.50 with one minute to remaining on the clock!!! I guess I was pipped at the finish line! (j/k)

My word!! "One Wild Ride" module sold for $363.00USD!!??

I don't know who is more nuts; the person buying these games for such a high price (imho, ymmv) or the producer for not milking this lucrative business a weeee bit more.
:nuts:

OT...does anyone think we will ever know the identity of the person(s) purcahsing these Vietnam modules? Personally, i don't think they have the nerve to admit to the ASL public that they won one of these auctions.
 

Michael Dorosh

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What? I put in a bid for $123.50 with one minute to remaining on the clock!!! I guess I was pipped at the finish line! (j/k)

My word!! "One Wild Ride" module sold for $363.00USD!!??

I don't know who is more nuts; the person buying these games for such a high price (imho, ymmv) or the producer for not milking this lucrative business a weeee bit more.
:nuts:

OT...does anyone think we will ever know the identity of the person(s) purcahsing these Vietnam modules? Personally, i don't think they have the nerve to admit to the ASL public that they won one of these auctions.
I thought Hennie was one of the first to buy the first Vietnam modules to come onto the market, based on the ebay user name.

Again, if someone pays several million dollars for a baseball, why is this any more unusual? Not understanding the reaction. Some people are blessed with having enough money to indulge their interest in the hobby to the fullest. They should do so without shame. The only thing that can keep conflict simulation in the closet, so to speak, is the attitude of insecure participants...right?
 

Maedhros

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I don't think ASL would represent Vietnam type actions well at all.
ASL is best-calibrated to the theater for which it was originally designed and playtested: WWII Eastern Front. Karsk Rifle Squad v. Mosin-Nagant Rifle Squad. 4-6-7 vs. 4-4-7.

The farther one strays from this, the more the system is strained. This was aptly demonstrated by what happened with Code of Bushido and Gung Ho! - as the designers noted, because of the way the Japanese and PTO were devised, the FP and ML of the Marines had to be increased for play balance purposes.

Trying to extrapolate the system as is to accommodate Vietnam-era tactics and technology strains the system beyond its capacity. One could probably use some of the same mechanics (fire phases, etc.) but a lot of the fiddly bits (AFs, fire tables, etc.) need to be re-calibrated.
 

Michael Dorosh

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ASL is best-calibrated to the theater for which it was originally designed and playtested: WWII Eastern Front. Karsk Rifle Squad v. Mosin-Nagant Rifle Squad. 4-6-7 vs. 4-4-7.

The farther one strays from this, the more the system is strained. This was aptly demonstrated by what happened with Code of Bushido and Gung Ho! - as the designers noted, because of the way the Japanese and PTO were devised, the FP and ML of the Marines had to be increased for play balance purposes.
Or the fact that they had more weapons of higher firepower...

Seriously, I don't think your assertions hold any water whatsoever.

Trying to extrapolate the system as is to accommodate Vietnam-era tactics and technology strains the system beyond its capacity.
Completely disagree. At the very least, you can't prove this and more than I could "prove" the opposite.

One could probably use some of the same mechanics (fire phases, etc.) but a lot of the fiddly bits (AFs, fire tables, etc.) need to be re-calibrated.
"Recalibrating" something is a far cry from declaring it junk, no? :)
 

Patrocles

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I thought Hennie was one of the first to buy the first Vietnam modules to come onto the market, based on the ebay user name.

Again, if someone pays several million dollars for a baseball, why is this any more unusual? Not understanding the reaction. Some people are blessed with having enough money to indulge their interest in the hobby to the fullest. They should do so without shame. The only thing that can keep conflict simulation in the closet, so to speak, is the attitude of insecure participants...right?
It is probably just me...I'm a new to the game system (< 1 year on ASLSK) and my viewpoint is quite narrow since I am not a collecter of all things ASL/ASLSK. That is why I stated above the imho, ymmv. If you guys have money and care to spend it on ASL/ASLSK then more power to ya! :)

Other than the price, I think the Vietnam module idea is fab! I would love to get into this action but I am stopped by the cost.
:cry:

OT...is anyone here a playtester for these modules? Are they well balanced?
 
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