ghosts....

Prester John

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JSMoss said:
Not entirely correct. While the phenomenom can be observed and described, there is no known procedure for determinig whether it really exists in any given relationship. If you come with one you will become the riches man on the plan.

Not all things in this universe can be parsed and disecceted by the human senses even aided with technology. In the end the universe is all mystery and 99.9% of everything we beleive is true about it will it time be understood to be completely false.
You'd better tell this to the psychologists who are using NMR imaging to studdy brain activity as part of their emotional research, which includes the research of love. And any psychology undergrad will tell you there are several types such as fraternal, sexual (lust), familial etc which are measured on various response scales designed for the purpose for measuring and clasifying it as well as other emotional states.

As for your last garbled statement just what are you trying to say? Black is white? Or that eventually it will be possible to prove that ghosts don't exist?
 

Pirate-Drakk

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Prester John said:
Proving the earth is round? Sail or fly around it!
What scientific measurement would prove you had sailed around a
spherical Earth and not a flat Earth? You would sail west and
put Polaris on your right, and follow your compass which always
shows N. to the right. Then you reach your starting point some
time later. Right? Well, this proves nothing. If you sailed
around the edge of a disk and the N. Star and N. magnetic pole
are in the center of the disk, you are still on a flat Earth.

Fewer people have ever sailed around the Earth than seen a ghost.
Why would one "believe" the Earth is spherical when they have not
proved it to themselves? Yet we celebrate Holloween to honor all
the ghosts and goblins of our same ancestors, that wouldn't agree
that the Earth is a sphere. LOL!

Prester John said:
Proof is what some people have offered here. I don't accept it. If they want to prove a ghost then at the very least they need multiple pieces of evidence, and not one ghostly photograph.
I completely agree with this statement. However, no one has yet
offerred an experiment to prove the Earth is a sphere which I
think we all agree is a correct assumption.

So, I challenge those that won't accept the existence of ghosts
to provide a list of observations that would convince them.

Countless testimonials, photographs, and human history don't
count, so what is it you want? What PROOF do you need? Would
a personal encounter with a spirit convince you? Or would you
just pass it off as a halucination, dream, hoax, acid flashback,
or trick of light?

How do you "measure" something with no physical substance? What
measurement device would you believe? A ruler, scale, thermometer,
anemometer, bolometer, calorimeter, CCD,
photomultiplier, spectrometer, magnetometer, interferometer,
hydrometer, barometer, speedometer, tachometer, spiritometer?
OK, I made the last one up... :cheeky:

Please, tell me what experiment science needs to undertake
and what measurements and measurement devices to use, to make the
experiment compelling, so we can PROVE that ghosts exist to those
who won't accept the present monumental pile of evidence.
 
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there have been many,many experiments conducted concerning ghosts.energy levels have been measured,drops in temperature,"things" captured on film.the documentation by credible people seems endless...yet its not enough.having never seen one i cannot speak from personal experiance,but "something" strange is going on in this old world of ours,and has been for quite some time. seeing as how they seemingly move freely in "our" reality chances of catching one in a jar for study seem remote.
 

Viking67

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Pirate-Drakk said:
What scientific measurement would prove you had sailed around a spherical Earth and not a flat Earth? You would sail west and put Polaris on your right, and follow your compass which always shows N. to the right. Then you reach your starting point some time later. Right? Well, this proves nothing. If you sailed around the edge of a disk and the N. Star and N. magnetic pole are in the center of the disk, you are still on a flat Earth.
Are you really arguing that the earth is flat?

First, if you were on a disk your plane/ship would be turning slightly to the right, otherwise it would go off the edge of the earth. Second, people have flown around the earth not only along lines of lattitude, but also along lines of longitude. So if the earth is flat, how is that possible? Third, if the earth is flat, how come it's night on one side and day on the other? Fourth, what about all those pictures taken from space?

Need more? I got some, if you do.
 

Prester John

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Pirate-Drakk said:
What scientific measurement would prove you had sailed around a
spherical Earth and not a flat Earth? You would sail west and
put Polaris on your right, and follow your compass which always
shows N. to the right. Then you reach your starting point some
time later. Right? Well, this proves nothing. If you sailed
around the edge of a disk and the N. Star and N. magnetic pole
are in the center of the disk, you are still on a flat Earth.
I think you need to follow a GPS compass instead. Convinced now? You do know what GPS is and how it works right?





Pirate-Drakk said:
Fewer people have ever sailed around the Earth than seen a ghost.
Why would one "believe" the Earth is spherical when they have not
proved it to themselves? Yet we celebrate Holloween to honor all
the ghosts and goblins of our same ancestors, that wouldn't agree
that the Earth is a sphere. LOL!
Oh get serious. At least try and get something right. All Saints Day (All Hallows Day) is a Christian Feast instituted to replace the pagan Celtic new year celebration, on the eve of which the spirits of the dead were said to roam free. The Celts might have been trying to make their homes cold and uninviting to the spirits. Or this may just have been a Roman interpretation of the Celts extinguishing all their fires to restart them on new years day from the one fire of the druids.



Pirate-Drakk said:
I completely agree with this statement. However, no one has yet
offerred an experiment to prove the Earth is a sphere which I
think we all agree is a correct assumption.

So, I challenge those that won't accept the existence of ghosts
to provide a list of observations that would convince them.

Countless testimonials, photographs, and human history don't
count, so what is it you want? What PROOF do you need? Would
a personal encounter with a spirit convince you? Or would you
just pass it off as a halucination, dream, hoax, acid flashback,
or trick of light?

How do you "measure" something with no physical substance? What
measurement device would you believe? A ruler, scale, thermometer,
anemometer, bolometer, calorimeter, CCD,
photomultiplier, spectrometer, magnetometer, interferometer,
hydrometer, barometer, speedometer, tachometer, spiritometer?
OK, I made the last one up... :cheeky:

Please, tell me what experiment science needs to undertake
and what measurements and measurement devices to use, to make the
experiment compelling, so we can PROVE that ghosts exist to those
who won't accept the present monumental pile of evidence.
And I have said that all you need to do is convince the experts, the serious ghost busters, who when the producer of the six o'clock turns up and says what do you reckon, they say "Yep, that's a ghost."
 

Prester John

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Terry Patterson said:
there have been many,many experiments conducted concerning ghosts.energy levels have been measured,drops in temperature,"things" captured on film.the documentation by credible people seems endless...yet its not enough.having never seen one i cannot speak from personal experiance,but "something" strange is going on in this old world of ours,and has been for quite some time. seeing as how they seemingly move freely in "our" reality chances of catching one in a jar for study seem remote.
Yes something strange is going on, strange meaning "unknown". And when we know whats going on it won't be strange. And strange things have been recorded on cave walls since the neanderthals were around. It's okay for cave man to believe in ghosts but are you on the same level as a cave man, where anything you don't understand is a ghost or spirit?

If ghosts can interact with this reality (slam doors, clank chains, reflect or emit light) then they can be recorded and measured in this reality.
 

MountainMan

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Looks to me like we're going at this the wrong way. Obviously, none of this is really about ghosts or Laws of Thermodynamics or any of that other stuff - it's really all about belief and who gets to determine it. Kind of like the way government works. "George Bush says he's a great President despite anything you might know or have personally encountered. Why should you believe him? Because George himself says so. No proof required.

There is no love, as mentioned, because it remains intangible. What is being "measured" may just be lust. Ask any woman and she can give you chapter and verse on the so-called male experience known as "love", which ain't no such thing. period. But wear KEVLAR jockey shorts with a NOMEX lining, because some degree of pain can be anticipated.

PET scans, BTW, and not MRI's, are the basis for such studies. MRI's are not sensitive to electrical alterations in the brain to the extent needed. I don't need proof - I practiced medicine for a long time.

There is no God. This was a given the moment Prester posted the basis for his argument. The Bible isn't proof, becasue none of it was written by the subject. There is no tangible proof of the existence of any god, let along the father of Jesus, but billions believe. I suspose we should wonder what they think they are believing in, based on Prester's Theory. Undoubtedly some form of mass hysteria resulting in delusional psychosis. These people don;t even get to talk to God; they have to rely on some guy to tell them what He is supposedly thinking. Sounds a little shaky to me, and it surely doesn't fit into the framewrok of Prester's Law.

In fact, not much of anything can be "proven" empirically. Sure, there's a lot of elaborate theory posted everywhere, but none of it is immutable. That's why it's funny to me to see people argue a "law" of thermodynamics, or to declare E=Mc2 a "law. They are no such thing, merely working theories which cannot be proven. Don't agree? What's the speed of light? I was taught that the speed of light was an immutable "law" of physics, yet today we know is isn't that way at all. Scientists right here on Earth have succeeded in slowing light to below the posted speed limit, meaning the "law" is no such thing at all, just a parameter under specific cicumstances which are subject, like everything, to change at any given moment. As soon as scientists succeed in making light go just a tiny bit faster, which they are on the verge of doing, everything Einstein believed in goes out the window, because that will literally be "faster than the speed of light", and the "law" will be shattered forever. Laws are only Man's way of trying to make sense of his surroundings. Truth is, what happens naturally every single second of Time could care less if we understand it at all. It exists anyway.

The most interesting thing about belief systems, however, is not what they aren't, but what they are. They are the personal beliefs of individuals held for the same reasons people believe in anything, such as a god. They are not subject to moderation or approval by non-believers. I have experienced things which I classify as "ghosts", or you can call it what you like. Let's say the "supernatural. I know empiracally what I have experienced and witnessed, and I base my belief on that. No amount of argument is going to change my mind, or anyone elses. In fact, the burden of proof is not on me, as a believer, it is squarely on the shoulders of those folks like Prester who wish to debunk it. If you really think you can convince me that I did not experience what I did, despite you not even being there, then there is a hot new career waiting for you in Washington, D.C. The government needs guys like you to run the Office of White House Propaganda, formerly known as the Office of the Press Secretary.

Do ghosts exist? Yeah, they do, until; proven otherwise beyond any reasonable doubt. Have people experienced contacts with them? Yeah, they have, by the millions that we know of. Can you disprove that by saying "pooh-pooh on everything; you're all wrong"? Not a chance.

Meanwhile, when you go to church the next time, make your priest show you God. And don't settle for anything less than the real thing. Ask for a photo ID when he shows up.
 

Prester John

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Yes, it must have been PET. I assumed it was NMR. Now what else were you saying? That god doesn't exist? Well that's your choice. That the laws of physics undergo change. Isn't what happened when we moved from a Newtonian to an Einsteinian universe. Strangely enough the wheels didn't fall off and we all didn't disappear in a puff of logic. Are you concerned that your core beliefs are so unproveable? I'm not. In fact you are able to invent anything you want in your mind, but to allow the inventions of your mind to govern your actions in the real world is a sad waste of life.
 

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Ahhh...come on Prester! Don't be like that.

But you can't have it both ways. The point is about belief systems. I have no real problem with you not belielving in supernatural experiences. After all, not everybody has experienced them, and it falls outside of many people's emotional and spiritual horizons. I realize that we come from an entire society of hardcore skeptics, except for the existence od UFO's in which case we have millions of believers. Go figure. Of course, the Auir Force has admitted not being abvle to explain a portion of the sightings, but...hey! They're the government and they're only here to help us, right? :rolleyes:

I believe what I believe based on experience. You believe or disbelieve as you will. But if you attack my beliefs, then the burden of proof is yours, because I'm not changing just because you aren't convinced. You weren't planning to change for me, were you? Thought not. Nor should you.

I wish there were some way to take you back in time and allow you to experience what I have, and then discuss it. I would be interested in your evaluations of the experiences. Meanwhile, we are at an impasse. Just remember that you haven't experienmced all there is to experience yet, which means there is stuff out there you don't yet really know about.
 

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For once Mountainman I agree with you. I saw what I saw and have come to my own logical solution (as good as my logic is...). I don't believe in UFO's but then I've never seen one. Maybe someday I might and my decision will be changed.
 

Viking67

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MountainMan said:
As soon as scientists succeed in making light go just a tiny bit faster, which they are on the verge of doing, everything Einstein believed in goes out the window, because that will literally be "faster than the speed of light", and the "law" will be shattered forever.
Actually, I read a while ago that they'd done this, using laser particles.
 

last_cav1971

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The Greenbrier Ghost is actually a part of the court record in this county. It appears a jury and judge found it convincing enough to have a man hanged.

Mark
Deo Vindice
 

Prester John

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And that's a good thing?

Well I can see how the supporters of the existance of ghosts would be cheered by such legal shenanigans. I wonder which county has a similar sign which instead says a space alien made an appearance in court.

But then I suppose you are quite free to believe in whatever you want, Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. But why do most people give up those beliefs but keep the equally irrational belief in ghosts? And some people haven't been paying attention. I can't prove ghosts don't exist somewhere, but I can point out how unlikely they are. All of those "believers" are unfortunately placed in the position of those who are forced to provide the proof because you only need one ghost to exist to prove the case. One single solitary ghost out of all the millions (billions) of such things and you only need one to end all this. Instead you walk into the face of logic and take the opposite view that it should be possible to prove the non-existance. Why am I unsurprised?

But what if on the other hand it is proved that ghosts can exist say in the heart of stars, where high gravity plays some trick with physics. Does that mean that ghosts can only exist inside stars and therefore it is impossible for ghosts to exist in low gravity? Would such an experiment reduce the number of people who believe? I don't think so. An individual has made an observation that they can't explain by any practical means. Instead of leaving it as "unknown" they characterise it as a ghost, why? Now this is a fact because a significant number of ghosts are debunked but why? Why do people line up in droves to swear they have seen a ghost, have it debunked, and then line up again just as confident as before. The logic is that you don't trust a bankrupt stockbroker, but the opposite applies for people who have seen ghosts.
 

last_cav1971

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You, Prester John, are just the type of person who would argue with a fence post..............the type who thinks they are so intelligent.......the type who will eventually fall flat on his ass when something does come up........imagine all that wasted time here on this post...........shame.

And as I asked before.......if you dont believe in ghosts, why do you continue to be the member with the numerical advantage on a post of this name?

Why dont you just leave...........or go somewhere and talk something that makes sense.......Or do you not have enough drama in your life, that you have to make it here?

Personally, Im sick of listening to your whining about who should and who should not prove if ghosts exist or not. Im sure Im not the only one.

Mark
Deo Vindice
 

Prester John

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last_cav1971 said:
You, Prester John, are just the type of person who would argue with a fence post..............the type who thinks they are so intelligent.......the type who will eventually fall flat on his ass when something does come up........imagine all that wasted time here on this post...........shame.

And as I asked before.......if you dont believe in ghosts, why do you continue to be the member with the numerical advantage on a post of this name?

Why dont you just leave...........or go somewhere and talk something that makes sense.......Or do you not have enough drama in your life, that you have to make it here?

Personally, Im sick of listening to your whining about who should and who should not prove if ghosts exist or not. Im sure Im not the only one.

Mark
Deo Vindice
And you came back to tell me that I'm arguing with the equivalent of a fence post????? Well okay then, if you say so. I can't argue with you on that point.

But there are a few people here who seem to be intent on proving me wrong but have no evidence to back it up. Instead I'm responding to emotional drival about how you have to be right because the universe will stop turning if you aren't. And if nobody stops believing in ghosts (I didn't really expect anybody to) at least they will be aware of why some people don't believe in them.

Will I fall on my arse when somebody does prove the existance of ghosts? I don't think so because I will be in there with everybody else taking advantage of it. I don't see why it should bother me if ghosts are proved as actual. Is the universe open or closed? I don't know but when somebody offers some evidence on the matter we will all be the wiser. But to swear by something as tenuous as ghosts on the basis of untrained observation and hearsay is a little unwise surely?
 
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