"Ghost Army" veteran obituary

Actionjick

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witchbottles

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Which just goes to show that what was true a few millenia ago is still relevant today.
One of the lesser understood concepts of Sun Tzu present in ASL is that of "fatal terrain". This is the key terrain feature which, upon close understanding of the field of battle, can neither be reasonably successfully defended, nor can it be surrendered to the enemy without a fight, due to the advantageous position it would provide the enemy forces if it were.

So both sides will be inexorably drawn to hold it almost regardless of ultimate cost in forces committed, even to the detriment of their remaining attack/defense lines. It is not a "choice" to hold or take such terrain, but an ultimatum forced upon the commanders due to the terrain itself.

It appears in some very well-designed ASL scenarios - "Lenin's Sons" is one of many examples where it can be seen.

Surprisingly, many of those scenarios where it exists also become "regulars" in various tournament play lists.

:)
 

Actionjick

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One of the lesser understood concepts of Sun Tzu present in ASL is that of "fatal terrain". This is the key terrain feature which, upon close understanding of the field of battle, can neither be reasonably successfully defended, nor can it be surrendered to the enemy without a fight, due to the advantageous position it would provide the enemy forces if it were.

So both sides will be inexorably drawn to hold it almost regardless of ultimate cost in forces committed, even to the detriment of their remaining attack/defense lines. It is not a "choice" to hold or take such terrain, but an ultimatum forced upon the commanders due to the terrain itself.

It appears in some very well-designed ASL scenarios - "Lenin's Sons" is one of many examples where it can be seen.

Surprisingly, many of those scenarios where it exists also become "regulars" in various tournament play lists.

:)
Would you consider Little Round Top at the battle of Gettysburg an example of such terrain?
 

hongkongwargamer

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18. All warfare is based on deception.
19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.
22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them.
24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
(The Art of War By Sun Tzu, Translated by Lionel Giles)


兵者,詭道也。故能而示之不能,用而示之不用,近而示之遠,遠而示之近。

利而誘之,亂而取之,實而備之,強而避之,怒而撓之,
卑而驕之,佚而勞之,親而離之,攻其不備,出其不意。
 

bendizoid

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One of the lesser understood concepts of Sun Tzu present in ASL is that of "fatal terrain". This is the key terrain feature which, upon close understanding of the field of battle, can neither be reasonably successfully defended, nor can it be surrendered to the enemy without a fight, due to the advantageous position it would provide the enemy forces if it were.

So both sides will be inexorably drawn to hold it almost regardless of ultimate cost in forces committed, even to the detriment of their remaining attack/defense lines. It is not a "choice" to hold or take such terrain, but an ultimatum forced upon the commanders due to the terrain itself.

It appears in some very well-designed ASL scenarios - "Lenin's Sons" is one of many examples where it can be seen.

Surprisingly, many of those scenarios where it exists also become "regulars" in various tournament play lists.

:)
Seems the key terrain features in ASL are usually high up or they are restrictive ponds, swamps, bamboo, marsh, rivers, board edges (giant impenetrable infinitively high walls with occasional one way doors), and the like.
 
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hongkongwargamer

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One of the lesser understood concepts of Sun Tzu present in ASL is that of "fatal terrain". This is the key terrain feature which, upon close understanding of the field of battle, can neither be reasonably successfully defended, nor can it be surrendered to the enemy without a fight, due to the advantageous position it would provide the enemy forces if it were.

So both sides will be inexorably drawn to hold it almost regardless of ultimate cost in forces committed, even to the detriment of their remaining attack/defense lines. It is not a "choice" to hold or take such terrain, but an ultimatum forced upon the commanders due to the terrain itself.

It appears in some very well-designed ASL scenarios - "Lenin's Sons" is one of many examples where it can be seen.

Surprisingly, many of those scenarios where it exists also become "regulars" in various tournament play lists.

:)
Would love to see your read of the other 8 terrains!
 

witchbottles

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Seems the key terrain features in ASL are usually high up or they are restrictive ponds, swamps, bamboo, marsh, rivers, board edges (giant impenetrable infinitively high walls with occasional one way doors), and the like.
it is not the "key terrain feature" one should be wary of in evaluating a battlefield, but the terrain feature that presents fatal terrain.

A good example most Americans would be familiar with would be "the Angle" at the Spotsylvania battlefield. It could not be ignored by either side, yet it did not achieve the goal of either side during the course of the battle, to hold it. The battle was decided by other events in nearby locations.


A good example in World War 2 history would be the re-entrant above the Kursk salient, 1943, before and during the battle. 9th Army could not ignore it, neither could Zhukov. Yet the critical losses to both sides which took place there, had no direct bearing on the ebb and flow of the fighting within the Kursk Salient itself.

In ASL scenario Lenin's Sons, it is the wooden one hex houses at the top of the mapboard near the woods exits. They cannot be ignored by either side due to their potential for firelanes and for good TEM firebases to extend threats into the VC areas, , but they do not play a decisive role for either side in achieving the scenario VC's. Both sides must fight for them or risk being outflanked by the enemy under covering MG fire, although holding them does not in any way fulfill any of the VC's.

Sun Tzu was projecting this important difference. Key terrain allows one to control the flow of the battle. Fatal terrain prevents one from controlling the flow of battle, but must be attacked or defended based on its ability to influence the battlefield.

Remember - the battle itself is won or lost before battle is ever joined. ASL does a yeoman job of presenting many command axioms to both players. Not bad for a game. But then, Sun Tzu would also point out that war is simply game theory itself in extension.

:)
 

witchbottles

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Would you consider Little Round Top at the battle of Gettysburg an example of such terrain?
No. LRT was key terrain.

For Gettysburg - which was a battle lost by the Confederacy at Chancellorsville - perhaps the closest example to fatal terrain would be Seminary Ridge.

Buford recognized this - and held it long enough to influence the battle, at high cost to the Union Cav Corps. Lee never did recognize it, and lost even though taking and holding it in great strength, with a massively disorganizing effect on AP Hill's forces - which then had no ability to press the initiative gained during the advance to contact up Culp's Hill. Possession of Seminary Ridge afforded neither side a direct ability to influence the battle, but the terrain of the battlefield forced both sides to fight for it to a detrimental cost.

I would believe better examples for the American Civil War and fatal terrain vs key terrain can be found on other battlefields.

Sun Tzu points out every battlefield has fatal terrain, but in many cases, it is not so obvious in hindsight to see.
 

witchbottles

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Which just goes to show that what was true a few millenia ago is still relevant today.
also of note - Sun Tzu is mandatory reading for all NCO's, warrant, and commissioned officers, in the U.S. Armed Forces, upon their promotion to leadership rank. Good reason for it, too - because it is entirely correct that the axioms of war are as true today as they were in the dynastic era of Asia, which served as the backdrop for Sun Tzu's work.
 
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