German Vehicle Note K

Tuomo

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Says: "A Tiger crew was the creme de la creme of the Panzer force. Therefore, as an inherent crew its morale is 9 (signified by "ML:9" on the counter) and the Tiger's printed APCR number (if one is present on the counter) is one higher than normal. "

Um. So does this mean:
A) Take the number printed on the counter and add one to get the actual APCR Depletion #, or
B) The number printed on the counter is one higher than one might normally expect

Neither really makes sense.

edit - OK, I see this thread from way back in the day. Where the 2010 version of Klas said:
My opinion is still the same. i.e., the printed value on the counter is increased by 1 if C8.2 applies.
But I kinda don't get it. If it's an SS or otherwise Elite unit, the APCR # would go up by 1 anyway. Or is Vehicle Note K saying that since Tigers are so super-special, if it's an SS (or otherwise "Elite") unit, the printed number goes up by 1 by Vehicle Note K, and then you raise it another 1 by C8.2?
 
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bprobst

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The way it should work (which is not necessarily the same as what is actually done, but I'm not aware of any exceptions; at least, not on "official" counters):

You have the basic depletion values provided in C8.12.

These values are copied on the actual counters, except a few individual vehicle types that show a different (usually higher) value. Tigers should be one of those types of counters.

Note that if a vehicle's "date" values don't correspond with the special ammo dates, then there shouldn't be any value depicted on the counter for that date. E.G., the StuGIII(L) has no APCR values for '42 or '43. (This doesn't explain why the PzIVF2 has no printed APCR values for '43.)

If C8.2 applies, then you add one to whatever the printed value on the counter is. C8.2 is scenario-specific, not counter-specific. No counter should have C8.2 already factored in. (Maybe black SS counters do, but who cares?)

Therefore, your bog-standard PzIVH has A5(42)/A4(43)/A3(44) and your bog-standard Tiger has A6(42)/A5(43)/A4(44) -- i.e., these counters match the theory.
 

Eagle4ty

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The way it should work (which is not necessarily the same as what is actually done, but I'm not aware of any exceptions; at least, not on "official" counters):

You have the basic depletion values provided in C8.12.

These values are copied on the actual counters, except a few individual vehicle types that show a different (usually higher) value. Tigers should be one of those types of counters.

Note that if a vehicle's "date" values don't correspond with the special ammo dates, then there shouldn't be any value depicted on the counter for that date. E.G., the StuGIII(L) has no APCR values for '42 or '43. (This doesn't explain why the PzIVF2 has no printed APCR values for '43.)

If C8.2 applies, then you add one to whatever the printed value on the counter is. C8.2 is scenario-specific, not counter-specific. No counter should have C8.2 already factored in. (Maybe black SS counters do, but who cares?)

Therefore, your bog-standard PzIVH has A5(42)/A4(43)/A3(44) and your bog-standard Tiger has A6(42)/A5(43)/A4(44) -- i.e., these counters match the theory.
In other words you're saying the Tiger's Printed APCR number is not taking into account that it is Elite for special ammo purposes despite being the creme de la creme of the Panzer force and that only if being designated as Elite (e.g. SS) would their printed special ammo number be raised by 1. Is that correct? At least that's what I take from the rules and your response.
 

Robin Reeve

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The 9 (i.e. improved) morale is printed on the counter.
I would believe that the printed APCR depletion value is also the augmented one (with the idea that it follows the same logics).

Btw, is it right that Tigers were exclusively manned by the SS (I confess that I haven't checked that)?
 

Paul M. Weir

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The 9 (i.e. improved) morale is printed on the counter.
I would believe that the printed APCR depletion value is also the augmented one (with the idea that it follows the same logics).

Btw, is it right that Tigers were exclusively manned by the SS (I confess that I haven't checked that)?
Agreed re APCR #'

Definitely not. The Heer (army) got something like 11 normal & 1 R/C Tiger Abteilung (battalions) vs 3 for the SS.
 

von Marwitz

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The 9 (i.e. improved) morale is printed on the counter.
I would believe that the printed APCR depletion value is also the augmented one (with the idea that it follows the same logics).
This is how it is to my knowledge.
However, would a Tiger be part of an SS-unit, then the APCR # would be upped by one.

Btw, is it right that Tigers were exclusively manned by the SS (I confess that I haven't checked that)?
No. Tigers were not exclusively manned by the SS. Indeed only the minority were.

Many Tigers were organized in a "Schwere Panzerabteilung" (numbers from S.Pz.Abt. 501 to 510). These were independent battalion sized units of the Heer.

Only three "Schwere Panzerabteilungen" were of the SS (101 to 103).

Though, to make it difficult and confusing (they were German after all...), since late 1944, these were named "Schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung" 501 to 503 which led to the Heer Abteilungen of that number being renamed.

von Marwitz
 

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IDK, seems odd that SS Tigers would get double doses of APCR increase. That's just my oldbie opinion though.
 

Michael Dorosh

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The 9 (i.e. improved) morale is printed on the counter.
I would believe that the printed APCR depletion value is also the augmented one (with the idea that it follows the same logics).

Btw, is it right that Tigers were exclusively manned by the SS (I confess that I haven't checked that)?
Grossdeutschland - the elite of the Army - had its own Tiger unit, which was unusual as Tigers were mostly formed into independent heavy tank battalions which were assigned directly to corps headquarters and used as a high-level asset. Two served in Italy.

I always thought the Luftwaffe's Hermann Goering Division had its own Tigers, based on stories of the counterattack at Gela, but apparently they were from an independent heavy tank battalion. They were actually kind of pissed at the HG since HG didn't want to spare resources to recover damaged Tigers from the battlefield. Apparently three surviving Tigers of the 504th Heavy Tank Battalion did join Panzer Regiment Hermann Goering for the withdrawal from Sicily to the mainland, so perhaps technically the Air Force had a few Tigers too....
 
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jtsjc1

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I'm sure the reference to being the creme de la creme of the Panzer force referred to early war Tiger crews. Otto Carius would probably have disagreed with that as the later war inexperience/bad tactics caused unnecessary losses from Tiger crews.
 

Robin Reeve

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Thanks for those who answered my unlearned question about Tigers and SS.
I don't know if I would push up the APCR Depletion # if SS, as even if not SS, those big cats were manned by elite personal.
 

Tuomo

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Thanks to those who responded. So we're gonna play it like any other vehicle, and if the owning unit is SS or otherwise declared Elite, we'll bump up their APCR depletion number by 1. Otherwise, assume Vehicle Note K is already reflected in what's printed on the counter.

This is all toward playing AP60, Nishne Nyet, wherein the Tigers don't even freaking NEED APCR. The 88L's already have a final TK of 9 against the toughest Russian armor. Their APCR bumps that up to 12. Yeah, I'm gonna say it's not real crucial here.

But an interesting scenario nonetheless. Early 1943, no panzerfausts. Old School Germans.

I worked up some VASL SSO's to reflect the various terrain changes. Makes the thing much easier to play, IMO. I'll make sure they get pushed to the VASL server so these become available as updates to the boards.

15441
 

von Marwitz

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You may hit with a 12.
Hm, I am just contemplating this: If you roll a 12 on the TH roll, your Gun will malfunction.

I seem to recall, though, that the attack is still resolved should it result in a hit, but I cannot find a rules reference.

Am I correct or is my mind playing tricks on me?

von Marwitz
 

Vinnie

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The attack still occurs, unless you are using special ammo whereupon the weapon just malfs.
 

Vinnie

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A9.7

7 SUPPORT WEAPON (SW) MALFUNCTION: Whenever a SW fires there is a chance it will jam or run out of ammunition. Each SW has an inherent B12 unless it has a Breakdown Number printed on its counter in the form "B#" or "X#". Whenever a SW participates in an attack in which the Original IFT resolution DR (or To Hit DR in the case of ordnance weapons) is ≥ that SW's B#, that SW malfunctions and is inverted (or if the SW has an X#, the SW has permanently malfunctioned and is removed). The attack which caused the breakdown is still resolved [EXC: DC; 23.4] but no subsequent fire is allowed from that SW until it has been repaired (see A.11).
 
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