German use of AA platforms in an attack

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Hi,

I have recently read that Pioneers in counter attacks were often given AA assets, presumably AA HT or flack HT / trucks.

This is around the Kursk era, does anyone have information of how such an OB was assembled?

I can imagine this being especially deadly at night.

Thanks
 

Paul M. Weir

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The short answer would be the officer issuing the counter attack command (not necessarily the one leading the attack) would assign units from his assets.

As you are talking about the German army, the standard policy was to combine assets as available and required without regard to official organisation, using an ad hoc battle group aka Kampfgruppe.

OK here would be my guess. Let's say it's an infantry division that is being attacked and penetrated. The infantry Regiments might be in-line with only local reserves. A position has fallen and the divisional commander still a has good chunk of his pioneer battalion uncommitted. He allocates his own HQ flak platoon as fire support for the pioneer counter attack. In addition a pioneer battalion usually had a small heavy company with an AT platoon (2-4 AT), a mortar platoon (2-4 120mm MTR) and sometimes a FlaK platoon (3-4 20mm AA).

While OOB varied throughout the war, the Germans had FlaK platoons organic to nearly every regiment HQ (infantry, panzer, artillery) and some battalion HQ (recon, engineer, AT). While not official until much later, infantry divisions' PzJG (AT) battalion had 1 co. towed AT guns, 1 co. StuG/Hetzer and 1 co. light FlaK, so I could see light flak being substituted for missing AT guns in the PzJG battalion earlier than that.

The whole thing is that when it came to an action the Germans combined what they had to do the job, regardless of official OOB, providing the officer had the rank and clout to do so. It was their way of doing things.
 
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Hi Paul,

If you play ASL I will send you the scenario. I have been reading a few detailed books being interested in WHAT attack
structure was used. Yes combat groups were defiantly ad hoc.

The particular situation is a late 42 attack - Donets - where the German was doing one of its "trademark" river crossings. This is the GD and 11th Panzer with all the bells and whistles.

In terms of ASL I want to do a night attack in a complex hills arrangement the only bit I don't have a feel for is the " AA assets" which I am presuming would have been " mobile". Pushing AA guns up the side of hills at night doesn't seem too smart after all.

The "biggest" AA seems to be the Flack 37 ( in 42 mobile) - furniture van- there is another one called the Pz 20L 38 t.

The guns available are:

20 L AA Flack 38 20L 6 IFE
Flakvierling 38 20L 20 IFE
37L AA Flack 36 o 37 37L 8 IFE ( heat )
37l AA Flack 43 37 L 12 IFE

At the present i am going for the Pz 38 t variant but if you have any ideas please let me know.

thanks



I hope this helps in your " visualization" of this idea of mine.
 

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OK, I now have a better idea of what you are after.

The 3 Pz IV based FlaK variants and the Pz 38(t) should not be seen until '44. The Flakpanzer 38(t) was not manufactured until Nov '43 and issued early-mid '44, mainly in the West. The Pz IV Möbelwagen also not issued until early-mid '44 and the Wirbelwind and Ostwind not until the very end of '44.

The far most likely SP FlaK in late '42 would be the 'soft' FlaK on halftracks.

I would definitely not rule out towed FlaK 30 20L (4), FlaK 38 20L (6), FlaK 36/37 37L (8) or FlaKvierling 38 20L (20). The FlaK 43 37L (12) saw no service before late '43 at the earliest. They could be quite aggressive with towed light FlaK, especially the FlaK 30 & 38 20L. The FlaKvierling and FlaK 36/37 would be a bit much, but possible.

So SdKfz 10/4 20L (4), SdKfz 10/5 20L (6) or SdKfz 6/2 37L (8) for SP FlaK. The SdKfz 7/1 20L (20) was quite rare at this stage, so possible but doubtful.

One wrinkle in the issue of FlaK was a side effect of the Nazi state feudal infighting. In order for Fat Herman to keep his fief and blow the boss, one way was to supply LW FlaK battalions to support the Heer formations. Initially most of the SdKfz 6/2 were issued to LW units, though later the Heer got the almost identical SdKfz 7/2 (the SdKfz 6 h/t production was gradually dropped in favour of the slightly more capable SdKfz 7). Those LW units also got first dibs on the towed FlaK 36/37 37L (8), at least prior to '43.

So for a unit prior to '44:
The divisional FlaK battalion: a mix of 2, 3.7 and 8.8cm weapons. Something like 6 x 8.8cm FlaK 18/36/37, 9 x 3.7cm FlaK 36/37 and 12/24 2cm FlaK 30/38. Could be Heer or LW, usually all towed prior to '43. The trend from '41 was to replace any LW FlaK battalions in division with Heer units.
Attached to divisional regiments/battalions: Any mix of towed/SP 2cm FlaK 30/38 in platoons of 3/4 guns, all Heer. Pz/PzGr/Motorised divisions far more likely to have SP. Depending upon how favoured a division is (SS vs Heer, GD vs the plebs, etc) you could have roughly a battery of 2cm FlaK (12 guns) per regiment (Pz, Inf, Art) and a platoon (3/4) in the Div HQ, Pio, PzJg and Recon battalions.

Independent FlaK battalions held at army/corps level.
This is where you are more likely to find LW FlaK battalions and the SP ones could contain the SdKfz 6/2 as well as the SdKfz 10/4 & 10/5.

So within a Pz/PzGr/Motorised divisional AA assets the ratio for 8.8cm:3.7cm:2cm would be very roughly 1:1:6+.

Given that it's GD + 11 Pz, I would suggest SdKfz 10/4 and/or 10/5 with some pushed/towed 2cm FlaK 30 or 38. The SdKfz 6/2 and 3.7cm FlaK 36/37 would be much rarer at this time, though still available.

The usual caveat that it is a only an informed guess at best, but hope that gives you a rough idea of what might be likely. I simply don't have the exact details.
 
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