German Tungsten Shells and Weapons in ASL.

Tim Niesen

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I was talking with Don Deibler upon my exit from the dentist office. He has one of th e extensive reference book collections on German weapon systems in WW2. He explained that although there was a shortage of tungsten, the Germans produced shells using this metal until the early part of 1945. The 28LL continued to be used to the end of the war although Gun production was discontinued in 1943. Paratrooper and special forces were the main users of this small but effective Gun weapon. The SS units of the GD division put 24 of them on a half tracks in place the the MGs. What started this converstation was Don' s reading about the fact that in early 1944 every Panther had four special tungsten shells used to penetrate heavy Soviet tanks. The shells were quite effective except for "pass through" problems. There was an account of a shell passing through a JS 1 which our effect, although the Soviet crew bailed out. This option should be introduced in ASL. Don will provide citations if anyone is interested. Tim
 

Jazz

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So, does this post have anything to do with ASL rules & Errata? Why is this in the Subforum for ASL Rules & Errata?

Moving this to somewhere it should be......
 

Tim Niesen

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Sorry. Move it Jazz. I thought since it pertained to the absence of a known German shell in the ASL inventory that may may pertain here. Perhaps in the section with proposed new counters.
 

Paul M. Weir

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The Germans continued to produce them for the 5cm PaK 38 for quite some time as well. Production of the 7.5cm PaK 40 was never enough and the PaK 38 was still viable with APCR/Panzergranate 40, much less so with standard APC/PzGr 39.

By the way GD was not SS, it was the premier Heer (Army) division.

I just found this useful site: https://panzerworld.com/armor-penetration-table
 

Swiftandsure

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I thought since it pertained to the absence of a known German shell in the ASL inventory that may may pertain here. Perhaps in the section with proposed new counters.
The Rules and Errata folder has nothing to do with design or historicity questions, but is strictly about how the game rules work.
It must be preserved as a resource for players having rules questions.
But your thread has found his place in this folder devoted to WW2 weapons and tactics - and Paul Weir has chimed in, with his very competent knowledge about such questions, so all is fine now.
 

Tim Niesen

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Am I incorrect: Has the tungsten shell for the Panther been modeled in ASL? What would be the penetration? Approximately is okay. Has any of the halftracks with the 28LL been put in counter form? Tim
 

Tim Niesen

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Note that some SS units were also equipped with this odd half track.
 

Paul M. Weir

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No APCR for the 7.5cm KwK 42 L/70 in ASL. But that's not the only one. The 8.8cm KwK 43 L/71 also had APCR and not in ASL. That might be forgiven as the standard shell in quite powerful and APCR rounds were quite rare by the time those guns came out.

I can't remember where, but recently I read about the use of the last clip of 2cm APCR against a Soviet tank, knocking it out. Another not covered in ASL.

The airborne version of the 3.7cm FlaK 36 (BK 3.7) as used by the JU-87G used APCR as standard. While ASL covers APCR for the 3.7cm PaK 35/36 and KwK 36, it does not cover the various 3.7cm FlaK guns. The PaK/KwK guns used different cartridges from the FlaK ones, but both had APCR produced.

The 2.8cm sPzB was also fitted to SdKfz 221 armoured cars, replacing its CMG MA. A 2.8cm was reported to have penetrated an early IS, apparently through the lower glacis.
 

Tim Niesen

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Don agrees that the production of 4 per Panther grom the factory may seem insignificant, given the production of over 2 million of regular shells produced in 1943, but still with judicious use (Only against Russian heavy tanks) they certainly must be considered at least in an SSR context. You have about 10,000 Panthers, four per tank. Some impact upon the JS1 and JS2. Tim
 

Tim Niesen

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Klas, Don also corrected me. He stated 5,000. In fact, he points out some flaws in my argument. First, attrition among Panthers was not insignificant, some of the special shells were no doubt lost in that manner. Second, during the numerous defensive battles of 1943 and 1944, there were numerous occasions when the German tanks simply ran out of all shells. In that case, judicious use of the special shells may be a specious concept. Third, he gives an example, of a group of Panthers a top of a ridge during the approaches to Berlin. The quartmasters gave out the special tungsten shells, and the tank commanders commented, "You are giving out these shells now!" Tim
 

Paul M. Weir

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Looking at the site that I mentioned, the APCR for a KwK 42 has a penetration of 174mm at 500m and 60° vs 124mm for APCBC. Dividing by Sin(60°) gives 201mm and 143mm for 90°. The default ASL TK is penetration at 90° in cm +5 which should give TKs of 25 and 19. However the ASL TKs are inflated at the higher ends due to the exponential stepping of the ASL armour values. Giving both an extra 4 gives us 29 and the existing 23 (that we have for the 75LL).

The 8.8cm PaK/KwK L/71 has 217mm and 185mm which adjusted give 250mm and 213mm. That should give TK of 30 and 26. So add 1 to give TK of 31 and the existing 27.

So my estimate for APCR for the 75LL is 29 and for the 88LL is 31.
 

AdrianE

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BFP4 Crucible of Steel has the halftracks with the 28LL. I think it is used in the scenario Flying Turrets.
 
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jrv

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BFP4 Crucible of Steel has the halftracks with the 28LL. I think it is used in the scenario Flying Turrets.
It is. The halftrack also has an inherent infantry crew in CoS, so when you kill it with everything aboard, it's worth a boatload of points (and it's an easy kill). For that reason, keep it out of trouble. I suggest unloading the 28LL & the crew, then sending the halftrack off someplace quiet.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

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Don has five or so photographs of this halftrack. Several of them have extra armor bolted to their fronts. Their survivability issue on the Eastern Front may have made their crews apprehensive. Tim
 

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It is. The halftrack also has an inherent infantry crew in CoS, so when you kill it with everything aboard, it's worth a boatload of points (and it's an easy kill). For that reason, keep it out of trouble. I suggest unloading the 28LL & the crew, then sending the halftrack off someplace quiet.

JR
Ignirevme, it has a passenger 228. This is not inherent
 

jrv

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Ignirevme, it has a passenger 228. This is not inherent
I intended to say that it was an extra crew above and beyond the vehicular crew already given in the vehicle. Because there is an extra crew, if the vehicle and all its contents are eliminated they are worth seven VP, more than typical for a halftrack. The "inherent-ness" of the crew in an ASL sense was not what I meant, only that there was an extra crew given with the vehicle that would count for CVP.

JR
 

Yuri0352

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It is. The halftrack also has an inherent infantry crew in CoS, so when you kill it with everything aboard, it's worth a boatload of points (and it's an easy kill). For that reason, keep it out of trouble. I suggest unloading the 28LL & the crew, then sending the halftrack off someplace quiet.

JR
Yes, that's how I played it. The 28LL is much more effective and harder to destroy it it is used dismounted.
 

jrv

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Yes, that's how I played it. The 28LL is much more effective and harder to destroy it it is used dismounted.
On the downside as a Gun it can be captured much more easily. Still despite being not a great weapon, it is good enough to be annoying. With a twelve base TK# and APCR point-blank bonuses, it's a threat to many of the Soviet vehicles. It can be set to unload on turn one and perhaps pushed onto the A-T ditch (it can't go IN, but it can be pushed on top). It might also be set up in bypass of woods and unload there. Alternately the halftrack might drive through the A-T ditch and unload in the grain behind. In either case the halftrack then drives away from the battle. Or you might turn the halftrack's rear toward the Soviet and have the vehicular crew abandon it with the AAMG in hopes that the Soviets will kill it and set the grain on fire.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

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One good question is how the German elite units used this halftrack? The bolting of metal plates on some of their fronts indicate that the halftrack was used in an offensive capacity. Would seem to be a defense against Russian MGs and ATRs. Certainly not an effective weapon against Soviet infantry. That the Germans were producing shells for it as late as March of 1945 shows that they valued the Gun if not the halftrack version. Tim
 
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