German-Polish war

[viridomaros]

i can organize a match between you two on a perfectly neutral ground
( belgium is particularly good for that don't you think).
Mr Bond vs Saper that's going to be pretty interesting :laugh:.

 

[piero1971]

gentlemen, man your Hurricanes!

 

[Bloodstar]

gentlemen, man your Hurricanes!

One sabre and horse to each are enough!


Mario

 

[saper]

i can organize a match between you two on a perfectly neutral ground
( belgium is particularly good for that don't you think).
Mr Bond vs Saper that's going to be pretty interesting :laugh:.

LOL - I see that debate is comming in new dimension ...

I agree - but maby I should give some preponderance for him ???

 

[saper]

They were fighting the Russians.

Oh yeah - I thought that was Eskimos ...

Not exactly, the same, but similar. Take a look at what the Poles actually fielded four or five years prior to 1939; their force was only marginally improved in the intervening years. Contrast with the Germans- who were in the midst of massive rearmament.

I think you don't understand question of production armament and storage of it. Do you really think that in 1941 without war before German not will be using Bf-109D and E-1 ???

So they've increased the size of their frontline fighter force threefold in a year and a half? Yeah. Sure.

I'm not surprised your opinion - your lack of knowledge is very pronounced in this point. For your knowledge in May 1939 in Poland was 3676 pilots and flying crew (I remain you that was before war, before mobilization).

Yeah. In the west, even Britain alone was outbuilding Germany in the air by the end of 1940. 1940 was pretty much the high-water mark of German material strength compared to the western allies

However in 1939 the Germans were able to focus the vast majority of their airpower- and especially key units like Ju-87s- against the Poles, just as they were able to do with their army. I don't see why 1941 would be any different; the French will still convince themselves that they aren't ready to attack.

I'm not talking that German victory in Poland in 1941 is not possible, I am talking that should be mach harder way for Germans.
You are not remember that Germans planed only "one stage" attack with close on line Bug river. Try to think about "two stages" operation with conquering eastern part of Poland in 1941 ...

Tell me again about how my scenario demonstrates my ignorance. Perhaps the Polish lancers which you told me to put in? Maybe the map problems which I subsequently corrected?

I told you that in every lancers, hors shooters and "szwoleżer" regiments 25% of unit was equipped in lance - I'm never was told that those soldiers had only lance to fight! but you in amuck change 25% of cavalry squad for XVIII century squad.
In this situation you should mark every soldier in infantry squad as a spearman because they had bayonets and rest of cavalierly squad for saber squad (majority had sabers).
I shown many points of ignorance on your scenario in your tdg website, and I don’t want to back for that. I thought that after 2 years you will be a bit wiser than was – unfortunately I was wrong …
Ben I understanding your frustration. You are creating yourself for a specialist of before and start of WWII history. I’m not talking that you don’t know nothing – you have got level of knowledge similar to funny gays from Discovery Chanel, but that level could be impressive for Chuck, but even for Barbarossa Group children is not enough. I can forgive you poor education, I can forgive you lack of knowledge , I can even forgive you “weakness” for postgoebels sources, but only in one case - if you will stop talking about yourself that you are historian (about military aspects I don’t expecting nothing from your side).
You can trying creating yourself for any you want, but if not I will be criticize you somebody other will show you your wastage in your work.

Quite right. The Polish air force was struggling to make so many planes operational. Isn't that what I said?

You are really don’t know nothing about reserves, logistic and war conception …

Given that the Poles were only able to produce 7TPs in small numbers, it makes sense to buy R-35s, if only for training purposes.

Well, comparing Polish military industry with Germans always will be easy, but … you are giving 16 months more for production and armament of armored battalions. I lost source about possibilities of production of 7TP (probably about 40 for month but I will try to confirm it) – this quantity will give rather problem with crew than with tanks.
Polish development plan included 12 tank battalion to end of 1940 – 4 for Fast Brigades and 8 for Supreme Command reserve.


p.s: Ben maybe good way is learning yourself from other languages ...

 

[Ben Turner]

Oh yeah - I thought that was Eskimos ...

The point is the Finns would have been able to smash the Red Air Force even if they'd been flying Sopwith Camels.

I think you don't understand question of production armament and storage of it. Do you really think that in 1941 without war before German not will be using Bf-109D and E-1 ???

Difficult to understand your question here. No, Germany almost completely replaced her fighter force twice over between September 1939 and June 1941. The aircraft you have the Poles winning with in 1941 were inferior to what the Germans were phasing out in 1939.

I'm not surprised your opinion - your lack of knowledge is very pronounced in this point. For your knowledge in May 1939 in Poland was 3676 pilots and flying crew (I remain you that was before war, before mobilization).

Quite, with a total of 6,300 in the whole air force. The Luftwaffe at the same time had 400,000 men.

I'm not talking that German victory in Poland in 1941 is not possible, I am talking that should be mach harder way for Germans.
You are not remember that Germans planed only "one stage" attack with close on line Bug river. Try to think about "two stages" operation with conquering eastern part of Poland in 1941 ...

At a guess, the campaign would be over a lot quicker. The German army was simply very, very much larger in 1941 than it had been in 1939. No crap about a counterattack on the Bzura. 8. Armee has more infantry than it knows what to do with.

What you fail to grasp is that upgrading this or that peice of equipment makes virtually no difference. The French had the finest equipment in the world in 1940 and still they were beaten in six weeks. The Poles simply could not cope with the way Germany waged warfare.

I told you that in every lancers, hors shooters and "szwoleżer" regiments 25% of unit was equipped in lance - I'm never was told that those soldiers had only lance to fight! but you in amuck change 25% of cavalry squad for XVIII century squad.

You're an idiot who doesn't understand TOAW. I changed the composition of cavalry regiments such that the defence value was exactly the same but the attack value was slightly increased, because in TOAW there is no "mounted rifle squad where some guys have lances". This is the kind of compromise we have to make in TOAW design in order to get a realistic representation. I've made a similar compromise with the Polish infantry TO&Es to represent the large size of their squads.

I shown many points of ignorance on your scenario in your tdg website, and I don’t want to back for that. I thought that after 2 years you will be a bit wiser than was – unfortunately I was wrong …

There are indeed one or two details where my scenario is flawed. Yours, however, is flawed in its concept due to a lack of understanding of the nature of Poland's defeat.

I can forgive you poor education,

What the hell is wrong with you? For your information- though I'm sure I've already told you- I have a degree in war studies, during which I studied the Polish campaign among others. You, on the other hand, have the tremendous benefit of the Soviet and post-Soviet Polish education system. Which of us do you think has a "poor education"?

if you will stop talking about yourself that you are historian

I am a historian. You are just about the rudest person I have encountered in seven years on the internet. And that's saying something.

You are really don’t know nothing about reserves, logistic and war conception …

Oh really? Nice of you not to actually back this up with any real arguments.

Well, comparing Polish military industry with Germans always will be easy, but … you are giving 16 months more for production and armament of armored battalions. I lost source about possibilities of production of 7TP (probably about 40 for month but I will try to confirm it) – this quantity will give rather problem with crew than with tanks.

Since Poland only ever fielded 169 7TP tanks, a production rate of forty per month seems unlikely, since the tank had been in production since 1934. I would think that in optimal peacetime conditions the per-month figure might be about twenty per month. Of course, as you note the Poles would be unable to find crews for that many tanks.

Polish development plan included 12 tank battalion to end of 1940 – 4 for Fast Brigades and 8 for Supreme Command reserve.

Fantastic. By the end of 1940, Germany had twenty panzer divisions.

p.s: Ben maybe good way is learning yourself from other languages ...

Considering how incomprehensible some of your paragraphs are, I'm inclined to recommend the same to you.

 

[Chuck]

gentlemen, man your Hurricanes!

Anyone up for a drink between rounds?

:drink: :laugh:

 

[Bloodstar]

Anyone up for a drink between rounds?

:drink: :laugh:

I think that Ben's cousin Churchill III will not come to the help of Poles if they are in dire straits :clown:

Poland is again buying arms - 600 APC etc, fighter force etc any figures how modern Polish army is armed?
Let the Russian bear now come or Germans hehe


Mario

 

[Bloodstar]

Here's some interesting links on Soviet invasion of Poland

http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id18.html
http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id19.html
http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id15.html

 

[Telumar]

Come on guys, it is just a game. Toaw is just a game (and to satisfy ben: ..a game and more). Don't get insulting.

We would have defeated Poland at anytime in history:freak: :freak: :freak:
..except some incident in the late middle age..:angry:

 

[saper]

Come on guys, it is just a game. Toaw is just a game (and to satisfy ben: ..a game and more). Don't get insulting.

Yes, but I'm showing only that subject of 1939 war especially for "western" creators was to difficult … result is in their scenarios …

We would have defeated Poland at anytime in history:freak: :freak: :freak:
..except some incident in the late middle age..:angry:

LOL - yes, there was some incidents ... well known is that from 1410 ...

 

[saper]

On start I want to say that is my last comment for bullshits theory of Ben. Is difficult for me to stoop to level of one-language child in love for postgoebels propaganda who are thinking about yourself that he is historian.

The point is the Finns would have been able to smash the Red Air Force even if they'd been flying Sopwith Camels.

Impressive historian theory – my congratulation! This is your own theory ?

Difficult to understand your question here. No, Germany almost completely replaced her fighter force twice over between September 1939 and June 1941. The aircraft you have the Poles winning with in 1941 were inferior to what the Germans were phasing out in 1939.

My position based on your assumption (start war in 1941). Do you forget about war between 1939-1941 – if you don’t have war what is the reason to cut older version your aeroplanes if they are still the best on world? Germans factories should made new model of fighter for every year before war for all fighter units?
If Germans had so much invention, tell me why Pzkw.IV F2 appeared in 1942? Why they don’t have Tigers in start of Barbarossa?
For your knowledge – in 1939 Luftwaffe had in fighters regiment even Bf-109 C …

Quite, with a total of 6,300 in the whole air force. The Luftwaffe at the same time had 400,000 men.

We are not talking about Luftwaffe in this point – do you loose subject?
Here is another point of lack knowledge of “mister wise” in subject Polish Air Force.
In May that was 9600 soldiers, after mobilization 16 000 – enough for 1200 planes even in ’39.

At a guess, the campaign would be over a lot quicker.

LOL – western historian ... Ben I told you before – first you should take some private lessons of geography.

The German army was simply very, very much larger in 1941 than it had been in 1939.

Was larger because was in war !
I don’t understand why you thinking that in 1941 Poland still should start fighting with 39ID?
Logical is that when German or Russian army will be stronger, Polish Forces should be stronger too – 39 ID was answer actual situation (in year twenties was 17ID later 21 in thirties 24, 30 and 38). In 1938 every in Poland well known that Germany army is in fast developing, Your theory that to 1941 Poland still will be with 39 ID even when Germans will be with 150 not making a splendor for you.

No crap about a counterattack on the Bzura. 8. Armee has more infantry than it knows what to do with.

Sorry I can’t see connection to topic.

What you fail to grasp is that upgrading this or that peice of equipment makes virtually no difference. The French had the finest equipment in the world in 1940 and still they were beaten in six weeks. The Poles simply could not cope with the way Germany waged warfare.

French army was badly commanded, had poor morale and worst military doctrine on the word. Even after defense collapse they still had 67ID ready to fight …

You're an idiot who doesn't understand TOAW.

To Nemo – Mark take my apologies for guy without culture. I see that guys from England and USA thinking they have monopoly for knowledge, and they had very bad reactions when they are starting to confute yourself about his own mistake.

I changed the composition of cavalry regiments such that the defence value was exactly the same

Very funny – and you are talking that I don’t understand TOAW.
Take my another congratulation.

There are indeed one or two details where my scenario is flawed. Yours, however, is flawed in its concept due to a lack of understanding of the nature of Poland's defeat.

Well, if I good remember that was not 2. Rather that was over 40 bullshits after only short analyze … I was never try to spend more time for more detailed analize because after 40 mistakes rest of scenario could not be treated seriously by me.

What the hell is wrong with you? For your information- though I'm sure I've already told you- I have a degree in war studies, during which I studied the Polish campaign among others. You, on the other hand, have the tremendous benefit of the Soviet and post-Soviet Polish education system. Which of us do you think has a "poor education"?

Yours.
I see that historical degree in England (on your example) is similar (maby a bit higher) to pupil of high school in Poland (with history hobby).

I am a historian. You are just about the rudest person I have encountered in seven years on the internet. And that's saying something.

Well, well, well – “mister amiable” told …
Ben I have bad relation for you because I have low toleration for poor level of knowledge, and bad relation for unobjective guys. Poor level of knowledge is effect of poor level of education – if you knew only one language you can’t be objective, because you can’t find a lot of sources.

Oh really? Nice of you not to actually back this up with any real arguments.

Ben – we will back for this point after next 2 year. Maybe you will be after extra private lessons.

Since Poland only ever fielded 169 7TP tanks, a production rate of forty per month seems unlikely, since the tank had been in production since 1934.

Strange, in my sources “letter of intent” for first 22 tanks was written in march 1935 – that very interesting who have right – “Mister wise” or I?

I don’t knew from which sources you take no. 169 7TP tanks – any postgerman?

I would think that in optimal peacetime conditions the per-month figure might be about twenty per month. Of course, as you note the Poles would be unable to find crews for that many tanks.

I wrote about 40 by month, and I afraid it could be problem, for crew for another 500 tanks without cutting or taking crews from units which existed in 1939.

Fantastic. By the end of 1940, Germany had twenty panzer divisions.

OK – are you was try to calculate how many tanks they was? 3300 in 20 PzD … but I have o agree with you in 1941 mobility of German units should be bigger than in ’39.

Considering how incomprehensible some of your paragraphs are, I'm inclined to recommend the same to you.

That was about languages – for your information. Some people in Poland as a point to opinion about other people taking base of how many languages he know. I know 3 active, and 6 other passive … of course I will try to learn myself another one.

Presently Ben I’m starting another 2 year of ignoring your person. 14.05.08 I will start making answer for your posts – you have 2 years for study.

 

[Ben Turner]

On start I want to say that is my last comment for bullshits theory of Ben.

Ah- the old withdraw and declare victory gambit. Good play.

My position based on your assumption (start war in 1941). Do you forget about war between 1939-1941 – if you don’t have war what is the reason to cut older version your aeroplanes if they are still the best on world?

This is an inane statement. You have the Poles replacing the PZL P. 11, but apparently the Germans are still going to be using the 109D? Whatever.

For your knowledge – in 1939 Luftwaffe had in fighters regiment even Bf-109 C …

In which units? My source disagrees with you;

http://www.ww2.dk/misc/ob1939.htm

In May that was 9600 soldiers, after mobilization 16 000 – enough for 1200 planes even in ’39.

Source? Mine is a historical study, which itself references The Sikorski Institute (a Polish organisation in London I believe) for the figure of 6,300 in the air force. As to the number of planes, the same book gives the figure of 935 (quoted from a German source- I can give you the full reference but it's a pain typing out a lot of German). Of course only about 300 of these were of modern types.

Was larger because was in war !

Nonsense. Germany was at peace between 1934 and 1939 and yet the number of men in army service increased by a factor of 18. The expansion from then to 1941 was no more than the natural progression of these plans. It may surprise you to learn that in the Autumn of 1940, Germany actually demobilised some units. The force they fielded in June 1941 represents something far less than a maximum wartime effort, and they would most certainly have made a major effort to expand during peacetime, since they along with everyone else were expecting another world war in about 1943.

I don’t understand why you thinking that in 1941 Poland still should start fighting with 39ID?

At the time, Germany's population was more than twice Poland's, and the number of actual Germans was more three times the number of actual Poles- without even going into the vast difference in the economic base of the two countries. This limits the size of the regular army to quite a small number of divisions, whilst the Poles never had (and never will) have time to mobilise more than the small number of reserve divisions they in fact fielded in 1939. Poland had never really disarmed after the Russo-Polish war. Germany was in the middle of massive rearmament. It was only just beginning when the war broke out.

Sorry I can’t see connection to topic.

My point is that the Germans suffered from a shortage of forces in Army Group South in 1939. The counterattack on the Bzura no doubt caused a couple of days delay in the final defeat of Poland. Absent this shortage, there would be no such delay and Poland would be defeated more rapidly.

French army was badly commanded, had poor morale and worst military doctrine on the word.

Well I wouldn't go that far. Their doctrine was bad but I doubt Italy was better.

Even after defense collapse they still had 67ID ready to fight …

That's true, but the French had lost almost all their mechanised forces in the low countries, along with their Belgian allies and the BEF. What was left to defend France was at best mediocre. Of course this was only one factor in their defeat in the second phase.

To Nemo – Mark take my apologies for guy without culture.

So much for your culture. The guy's name was "Marc" last time I checked.

and they had very bad reactions

I think the definition of a "very bad reaction" would not be much akin to what I've been saying. Maybe if I'd repeatedly made personal remarks about the intelligence of my interlocutor, that could be classed as a "very bad reaction".

Very funny – and you are talking that I don’t understand TOAW.

No, actually I just said you don't fully understand TOAW design.

Well, if I good remember that was not 2. Rather that was over 40 bullshits after only short analyze … I was never try to spend more time for more detailed analize because after 40 mistakes rest of scenario could not be treated seriously by me.

Give me strength....

I see that historical degree in England (on your example) is similar (maby a bit higher) to pupil of high school in Poland (with history hobby).

Give me a break. My country has a record of historical scholarship which is amongst the finest in the world. You've heard of John Keegan, maybe Richard Overy (who lectures at King's College)? Name an internationally renowned Polish historian. Can't? I wonder why.

if you knew only one language you can’t be objective, because you can’t find a lot of sources.

Actually I have used a lot of sources (including some input from yourself and Jarek Flis). Of course, for you any data which comes from a German source is "postgoebbels" and therefore inadmissable- and British scholarship is the equivalent of teenage study in Poland. Now I am supposed to be the "unobjective" one?

Ben – we will back for this point after next 2 year. Maybe you will be after extra private lessons.

Maybe you will have grown up and learnt the proper way to behave.

Strange, in my sources “letter of intent” for first 22 tanks was written in march 1935 – that very interesting who have right – “Mister wise” or I?

"Letter of intent" presumably means the order being placed for the tanks. Well my source is here;
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/pol/poland7tp.htm
Admittedly the website is hardly impeccable as a source, but if you'll check the main Poland page you'll see a large number of Polish names are responsible for the contents.

I don’t knew from which sources you take no. 169 7TP tanks – any postgerman?

Same source. What figure do you have? Since there were under 100 7TPs in the two light tank battalions, I presume that a lot of these fought in ad-hoc units, if at all.

OK – are you was try to calculate how many tanks they was? 3300 in 20 PzD …

Plus the losses of 1939 (a little over 200) and 1940 (presumably more).

but I have o agree with you in 1941 mobility of German units should be bigger than in ’39.

On this subject, it's worth noting that the increased motorisation of the German army after 1940 was to a large extent made possible by the capture of large numbers of motor vehicles from the French. So whilst I'd argue that the sheer size of the German army, and of the air and tank forces, would be about the same as historically, there would probably be substantially less motorised infantry.

That was about languages – for your information. Some people in Poland as a point to opinion about other people taking base of how many languages he know. I know 3 active, and 6 other passive … of course I will try to learn myself another one.

Es Kerakas.

 

[General Staff]

You are just about the rudest person I have encountered in seven years on the internet. And that's saying something.

LoL- It sure is. But I'd suggest Saper's quite tame compared to some of the monsters (and I don't have either of you in mind by any means here) running around out there on various wargaming forums... But then again let's hope he's not planning to go to the World Cup in Germany this summer...

 

[Ben Turner]

LoL- It sure is. But I'd suggest Saper's quite tame compared to some of the monsters (and I don't have either of you in mind by any means here) running around out there on various wargaming forums...

Well it's between him and "JTGEN" who was blaming the Americans for 11th September within hours of the attacks.

 

[saper]

As answer for this debate ...

As answer for this debate I just started for created hippotetical scenario - 1941 Polish - German War.

I'm waiting for logical proposition for German Army armament and forces engaged in war with Poland, when they have to hinking about Allies attack from west.

 

[Ben Turner]

As answer for this debate I just started for created hippotetical scenario - 1941 Polish - German War.

I'm waiting for logical proposition for German Army armament and forces engaged in war with Poland, when they have to hinking about Allies attack from west.

I'm currently reading Zaloga's book on the campaign. According to him, the Polish armed forces projected that whilst in 1939 they could expect to be outnumbered 2-1, by 1941 it would be more like 3-1. I'll get you the exact reference if you like.

 

[piero1971]

who was blaming the Americans for 11th September within hours of the attacks.

what! ? you mean, it wasn't the americans!!!???

 

[Ben Turner]

what! ? you mean, it wasn't the americans!!!???

Well, he wasn't saying they actually carried the attack out. He was saying that they brought it on themselves. I believe his exact words (in block caps) were "and I do think they deserved what they got".

 

[Telumar]

Well, he wasn't saying they actually carried the attack out. He was saying that they brought it on themselves. I believe his exact words (in block caps) were "and I do think they deserved what they got".

This guy seems to be a hothead..

The people that died in that day in those two towers can't be blamed for 50 years of bi-moralic foreign policy of their country's various administrations, sure.

But the US political "class" should ask themselves why could this happen? Why have the US lost their credibility in the world, especially the third world and in the islamic countries? Instead they rised more hate, started more wars, undermined the UN, poisoning euro-US relations, sowing more paranoia.. This is the false way imo. Vietraq...

They were once celebrated as the bringers of peace, democracy and wealth. At least in Germany in 45ff

Maybe it's not the administration but the corporates... :shock:
Am i a Marxist???:surprise:

My two off-topic euro-cents