German four barrel AAMG?

asloser

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I’m reading book passage for a potential Finnish - German scenario in October 1944.

The Finnish description refers to an “four barrel anti aircraft machine gun”. The closest I can think of is a Flakviering, of course this is a 20mm cannon and would be quite powerful... is there anything else Germans used that would fit to this description?
 

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I’m reading book passage for a potential Finnish - German scenario in October 1944.

The Finnish description refers to an “four barrel anti aircraft machine gun”. The closest I can think of is a Flakviering, of course this is a 20mm cannon and would be quite powerful... is there anything else Germans used that would fit to this description?
Think they had a halftrack 'drilling' with 4 MGs mounted together. Could be something like that
 

Justiciar

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So depending on your source ...they could have confused or misused the term machine-gun..for cannon or gun and it could still be the Flakweirling. Though from your OP it is hard to gauge context as to whether this was a vehicle mounted weapon or a static mounted one.

Another option is that this is some captured kit being employed by the Germans. So the for example the Russians did have a 4x MG AA mount (Maxim 1910s)...likewise there are similar mounts on the Taczanka types from various nations...

Could you give us some more tidbits to work from...

{Note if the weapon is in the hands of the Finns, it could still be the Russian AA weapon, as they could have capture these earlier in that war.}
 

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It is a first hand account of nighttime combat engagement- as there is no obvious candidate for the quad MG I think I will go with Flakvierling- It just is tricky to get the scenario working with a single powerful piece like this.
 

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So given it is a night action...are we assuming the first hand person saw all four barrels going at once close at hand...or is the first hand person on the receiving end and a lot of tracers are coming over?....I ask b/c the Germans had a double mount MG34...like on the armed KfZ 4...this mount was also found towed in its on sort of 'wagon' either by horses or motor vehicle. The so called "Zwillingslafette 36". Thus if on the receiving end, and just picking one's head up now and then to look, and it being night, a dual barrel MG in action could give the effect of 4 in the heat of the moment judgment...

How is the weapon's effect written up...quote us some lines...

What nation is doing 'the shooting' with the 4 barrels.
 

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So given it is a night action...are we assuming the first hand person saw all four barrels going at once close at hand...or is the first hand person on the receiving end and a lot of tracers are coming over?....I ask b/c the Germans had a double mount MG34...like on the armed KfZ 4...this mount was also found towed in its on sort of 'wagon' either by horses or motor vehicle. The so called "Zwillingslafette 36". Thus if on the receiving end, and just picking one's head up now and then to look, and it being night, a dual barrel MG in action could give the effect of 4 in the heat of the moment judgment...

How is the weapon's effect written up...quote us some lines...

What nation is doing 'the shooting' with the 4 barrels.
wirbelwind mounted the quad 20mm flakweirling
 

Justiciar

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wirbelwind mounted the quad 20mm flakweirling
Read the OP...the word stated is "machine gun". We are trying to rectify "machine gun" with what we know about German weapons...and possibly captured weapon use...on the assumption that the word "machine gun" is correct in all respects. You can see from my answer in post 5, it is possible the 'source' was using military terms loosely. The Flakweirling is a cannon not a MG.
 

von Marwitz

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I seem to recall a picture of a German contraption with multiple MG34. If I only knew where...
But as I remember it, it seemed to be some field-modification and not a purpose-built system.

If I can come up with a picture, I'll provide a link.

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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What I remember is roughly this:

1546022646741.png

But four of these twins stacked. As I said, I am pretty sure that was a field modification and nothing otherwise seriously considered.

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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I’m reading book passage for a potential Finnish - German scenario in October 1944.

The Finnish description refers to an “four barrel anti aircraft machine gun”. The closest I can think of is a Flakviering, of course this is a 20mm cannon and would be quite powerful... is there anything else Germans used that would fit to this description?
The Russians had an AA-MG which consisted of 4x medium MG (ASL-type Russian MMG) beside each other. For this device, there is even an ASL counter. Depending on which side the weapon owns, maybe the Finnish might have captured it from the Russians before?

1546023013514.png

Another link:

https://www.pinterest.de/pin/494199759094354900/

von Marwitz
 

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Paul M. Weir

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Klas is right, it was a triple mount with surplus Luftwaffe MG 151 (1.5cm) and later MG 151/20 (2cm).

The MG 151 was initially used in the Bf-109 F-2 as its central "motor cannon". The Germans found that HE content to be far more effective than high velocity penetration. They "necked out" the 15mm cartridge to 2cm and shortened it so the total round was the same length and made the MG 151/20. The barrel and a few parts were different but most of the gun remained the same. The MG 151/20 was used from the Bf-109 F-4 onwards. Neither had any relationship to the earlier 2cm MG FF design as used in many aircraft like the Bf-109 E. The projectile, though, from the 2cm MG FF was used in the MG 151/20 but with a mutated MG 151 cartridge. Some early Fw-190 A series had 2 each of MG FF and MG 151/20 but later models had 4 MG 151/20.

The MG 151 had very limited use, the MG 151/20 became the commonest German 2cm aircraft cannon but by late '43 the Germans wanted more HE punch and decided to go to 3cm. They had 2 3cm, the MK 103 which was quite heavy and the MK 108. The MK 103 was used in aircraft like the HS 129 and night and heavy fighters and a pair as the armament of the Pz IV Kugelblitz unrealised AA design. It was far too heavy for single seat fighters with the exception of the Do 335. The MK 108 though firing a similar projectile, did so at a much lower velocity and the low gun weight meant that it could replace MG 151/20 installations. So early Bf 109 G6 could have 2 1.3cm MG 131 and a 2cm MG 151/20 motor cannon and late Bf 109 G6 could have 2 MG 131 and a 3cm MK 108. 4 MK 108 were fitted to the Me 262. So first with the MG 151/20 replacing the MG 151 and later the MK 108 replacing the MG 151/20, the earlier guns, those older guns became available for other use.

So while the 2cm FlaK 38/KwK 38 was fairly major rewrite of the FlaK 30/KwK 30 to increase its reliability and rate of fire, it had nothing to do with the Luftwaffe MG FF and MG 151/20 who in turn were unrelated to each other.

I have seen a fair few light twin MG 34 7.92mm AA mounts. In "Da Paul Challenge" someone posted a multi MG 34 mount with 3/4 layers of MG 34 for something like 14 MG 34, captured by a Soviet (Naval?) infantryman. I found it difficult to count due to the photo quality and angle, so many protruding bits! I also have a vague memory of a quad MG 34 mount, not very common.

The Finns did capture about 80 Soviet 4 gun mounts. Those were 4 x 7.62mm Maxim M1910 MG mounted on a tripod+cone base. The cone shape seems to be a cooling water reservoir. The Finns called them ItKk/09-31. Apparently 70 survived the war. The heavy mount could be ground mounted but was often seen on the back of a truck, see SVN 43 & FVN 22 GAZ-4M-AA. Due to its weight the ground version was more often seen in cities, airfields and bunker complexes. Some were mounted in modified railway wagons, but its most common field use was on the GAZ-AA truck as the GAZ-4M-AA (the AA was the truck model, a licenced Ford-AA).
https://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AAMG.htm
No official counter for the ground version, yet. As far as I know there was no wheeled limber for the ground mount (such as the Flak 30/38 had). The whole thing had to be lifted onto a truck/wagon/sledge or carried by a few very strong men.

Edit: For the ground version the designation was M-4 during wartime, though some later called it the ZPU(-4), though that can cause confusion with the post war ZPU-4 with 4 x 14.5mm MG. I eventually found its weight of 470 Kg, about 43% of the US M45 Maxon quad .50" mount or roughly the weight of the Soviet 45mm AT (45L). By comparison the French twin 13.2mm weighed 300 Kg. I would suggest treat the same as the 13.2 CAJ mle 30 (FON 18) with Tow NA and a M of M(6) due more to the awkwardness of moving it than its weight.
 
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Sparky

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I’m reading book passage for a potential Finnish - German scenario in October 1944.

The Finnish description refers to an “four barrel anti aircraft machine gun”. The closest I can think of is a Flakviering, of course this is a 20mm cannon and would be quite powerful... is there anything else Germans used that would fit to this description?
what might help pin it down is a bit of context of the book passage and the type of action it was and where it happened. Most likely it was a 4 barreled Maxim that the Germans either captured themselves from the Soviets or took from the Finns when forced to evacuate Finland but it could have been a Flakveiring.

Soldiers were forever called every German tank they met on the battlefield a 'tiger'. Did the common solider (the basis of the description you reference) really note the only real difference between a machine gun and a small caliber autocannon is one fires bullets, the other shells. If on the receiving end of either, I can tell you man, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to me what it was. All I'd care about is getting the hell away from it haha.

However the Flakvierling was either in static mount or vehicle mount. Static mounts were used to defend high value targets from air attack. If the action you are reading of was during the German withdraw you can probably eliminate the static. Most likely they would have been found around Petsamo and IIRC.. the Soviets went directly after that themselves. And most vehicle mount were attached to motorized divisions which none of which were in Finland so the chances of finding Sd.Kfz. 7/1 in Finland were probably very small to non-existant to say nothing of the very rarely found Wirbelwind.

I'd tend to think it was the Maxim myself but the context of the book passage might help narrow it down for you and possibly eliminate the already small chances the account was talking about a Flakvierling.
 

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I'd be very, very surprised if single a SdKfz 251/21 was in northern Finland. A quick look at OoBs show 3 Mountain Corps which had only mountain or infantry divisions. Only 2 separate Pz Abteilung were noted, Pz Abt 40 and 221 armed with early war Panzers and Beutepanzers (ex-French). Some StuGs might have been there as well. There was also a special Norwegian based Pz detachment that was mainly armed with Pz III L, M and N and surrendered to the British in '45. Overall Norway and Finland based German forces only had (semi-)obsolete junk.

The SdKfz 251/21 were mainly if not exclusively issued to Pz and PzGr divisions, possibly only to the armoured haltrack battalions of Pz Divisions and only from quite late '44 onwards.
 
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