German 37L AT gun

semenza

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The HEAT grenade is not a 37mm grenade but rulewise you can still achieve a Multiple Hit with it.

You rather get a Multiple Hit with the Stielgrenade at an AFV. To see your opponent giving up his hope for a double Dud is great, lol.
No multiple hits. It does not fire on the Vehicle / Infantry Target Type. It has it's own TH procedure but the normal mods still apply.

Seth
 

Philippe D.

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Where in the rules does it say it doesn't use the Vehicle or Infantry Target Type? All I can read is that it has a modified TH number (and that targets are restricted), but it doesn't say that this is not considered Infantry of Vehicle TT.

(I don't have a problem with it, but I just don't see anything in the rules that disallows it)
 

Spencer Armstrong

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Where in the rules does it say it doesn't use the Vehicle or Infantry Target Type? All I can read is that it has a modified TH number (and that targets are restricted), but it doesn't say that this is not considered Infantry of Vehicle TT.

(I don't have a problem with it, but I just don't see anything in the rules that disallows it)
ITT/VTT essentially boils down to the To Hit table being used. So if it has its own hit table, it’s not really using either type (similar to LATWs using their own To Hit tables).
 

semenza

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The Multiple Hits rule says they occur when using the Infantry / Vehicle Target Type. Infantry / Vehicle Target Type is a specific TH table. Yes, it is firing at a vehicle but not using the Vehicle Target Type. Which is also why the note needs to say that the normal modifiers TH apply.

I only even looked because it just didn't make sense for the Stielgranate 41 to get MH. It is essentially muzzle loading and also reduces the ROF of the 37L. That doesn't exactly jive with extra high number of shots.

I suppose it could be argued , but .....................

Seth
 

semenza

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Of course it is so darn rare to actually get to use the thing in the first place and combined with pretty much needing a dud for it to matter, that it probably doesn't really matter too much. Though having said that it will most likely occur next time I play :)
 

Brian W

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The 37L AT gun was the most numberous AT gun in the German inventory and on the front lines until 1944. It is one of those most underrepresented weapons in ASL. Having said that, the use of HEAT round took considerable bravery. Loading the round should probably be a concealment loss activity (and maybe even hazardess movement), it shouldn't get any ROF (instead of just a lowered ROF) and I think, unlike most of the other special ammo types, you should know before rolling the dice if a round is available since the way it was loaded was so different than a normal round.

So, I suspect it is missing as a weapon from so many ASL scenarios because of its overstated usefulness. Should be a generic grudge SSR built to use it.
 

STAVKA

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The Multiple Hits rule says they occur when using the Infantry / Vehicle Target Type. Infantry / Vehicle Target Type is a specific TH table. Yes, it is firing at a vehicle but not using the Vehicle Target Type. Which is also why the note needs to say that the normal modifiers TH apply.

I only even looked because it just didn't make sense for the Stielgranate 41 to get MH. It is essentially muzzle loading and also reduces the ROF of the 37L. That doesn't exactly jive with extra high number of shots.

I suppose it could be argued , but .....................

Seth
Rulewise you are incorrect, common sense we agree upon that the Stielgranate should not be able to get Multiple Hits. See also C3.31 and C3.32.
 

von Marwitz

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Well rule wise neither is correct. It is not clear enough.

Seth
Ruleswise, it is clear enough. Nowhere I can see a specific TH table for the Stielgranate. The basic TH and the range modifiers are just that - modifiers to the normal TH tables. These modifiers might resemble those for BAZ, PSK, PIAT, but there's no table for the Stielgranate.

Melvin and Philippe have pointed this out.

So Multiple Hits are possible with the Stielgranate. It should come up rarely enough to be a nuisance.

von Marwitz
 

ColinJ

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PF rules clearly state it is using the C3 TH table, but as per C13.33 (which isn't anything like the C3 TH table :mad:), all the applicable side effects of using the C3 TH table therefore apply.

BAZ rules say it uses its own TH table, but C5 & C6 modifiers still apply, a similar statement to Note B. The side effects of using the C3 TH table do not apply to BAZ unless specifically noted, e.g., section C3.7 states Critical Hits are specifically noted as occurring when using a LATW TH Table. Is the Stielgranate 41 TH table considered using a LATW TH Table? I would say no since LATW are defined in C13 as an SW. Is it possible for a Stielgranate 41 to get a Critical Hit then?

Note B outlines the specific TH number for the Stielgranate 41, 11 at 0 hex range, and then subtract 1 for each hex of range. Note B only says Target/Firer based TH modifiers are used and does not state you are using the C3. To Hit Table when using the Stielgranate 41, modified or otherwise. Since you are not using the C3 TH table for the shot, the side effects of using the C3 TH table, such as multiple hits, do not apply. Therefore no multiple hits when using the Stielgranate 41.

Colin
 

Tim Niesen

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Do the Hungarians get this fpe their 37Ls at the same time or at the start of 1943? Likewise, the Italians may have a similiar round for their 47s in any Summer of 1943 actions against the Germans. I assume that the latter is by SRR only.
Tim
 

STAVKA

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PF rules clearly state it is using the C3 TH table, but as per C13.33 (which isn't anything like the C3 TH table :mad:), all the applicable side effects of using the C3 TH table therefore apply.

BAZ rules say it uses its own TH table, but C5 & C6 modifiers still apply, a similar statement to Note B. The side effects of using the C3 TH table do not apply to BAZ unless specifically noted, e.g., section C3.7 states Critical Hits are specifically noted as occurring when using a LATW TH Table. Is the Stielgranate 41 TH table considered using a LATW TH Table? I would say no since LATW are defined in C13 as an SW. Is it possible for a Stielgranate 41 to get a Critical Hit then?

Note B outlines the specific TH number for the Stielgranate 41, 11 at 0 hex range, and then subtract 1 for each hex of range. Note B only says Target/Firer based TH modifiers are used and does not state you are using the C3. To Hit Table when using the Stielgranate 41, modified or otherwise. Since you are not using the C3 TH table for the shot, the side effects of using the C3 TH table, such as multiple hits, do not apply. Therefore no multiple hits when using the Stielgranate 41.

Colin
If you had some rule # to back up your rule theory, perhaps I could follow your reasoning, read C3.8 twice it should make it clear that you are wrong.
 

semenza

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What you mean without a rule reference? It's in the title posted on the Perry Sez board. C3.8 Multiple hit and Stielgranate 41.



Seth
 

ColinJ

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Without a rule reference, of course, guess we have to wait for the errata.
C3.8 MULTIPLE HITS...Original Doubles TH DR on the Vehicle/Infantry Target Type has achieved two hits...
You are targeting a vehicle, using a weapon specific TH Table, similar to a BAZ. See Chapter H, German Multi-Applicable Ordnance Note B. ...Basic to Hit Number of 11. Each hex of Range decreases this number by one. Its maximum range is 9 hexes... You are using the Note B TH Table, there is no mention of a VTT or an ITT, and no mention of the C3 TH Table (like a PF). Since you are not using the VTT as per the C3 TH Table, C3.8 does not apply.

Perry has spoken and I'm good with the ruling. If there ever is dissension on the matter during the pre-game overview, I'll be happy to have a dr or TD decide.

Colin
 

STAVKA

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You should know what I mean, a rule reference that support the answer
What you mean without a rule reference? It's in the title posted on the Perry Sez board. C3.8 Multiple hit and Stielgranate 41.
Seth
After reading your bad text question to Perry,
Anyone would also have answered No, since the format lend itself to Yes or No answers.

Like I wrote before the rule is broken (in the same way - when units die of failure to Rout towards an empty truck), so why not fix it, looking forward to the errata.
 
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semenza

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It's a straight up question. The rules are in the book. Pretty sure Perry knows the rules. Didn't really seem necessary to put full quotes of the rules in the question. Yeah, it's a yes / no question. If Perry felt that the Steilgranate 41 should be allowed multiple hits he could have said yes. What more do you think there should be?
 

STAVKA

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No multiple hits. It does not fire on the Vehicle / Infantry Target Type. It has it's own TH procedure but the normal mods still apply.

Seth
Your question try to imply that the Gun always gets multiple hits when firing a Stielgrenade like certain flak guns, the answer to the question must be No.
 
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