Geoboards - ideas wanted

DWPetros

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With all the talk about canals, railroads and diagonal hills I may have missed something, so here goes:
With all the hill boards done so far, few of them have much more than token cover, 39 being the most noticeable exception and I believe 77 will have some.
By cover I mean woods, brush, orchards and grain, possibly some buildings on the peak. BFP had their J & K with cluttered hills, but not enough official boards. Once you step above the base level then you usually are naked to fire.
My impression is that there are some large hill boards with too much terrain (ie. B15, the one with all the Woods, etc.). That said, I think that there is a need for some new Hill boards with heavy cover - weather Woods or Buildings. There are a number of Hill/Village boards sketched which show Ukrainian towns (like at the Kursk southern salient), PTO villages along a ridgeline, Italian villages on Hillsides, and some new Normandy Hills with Bocage. So, at least they're in sketch format - and Tom has colorized a few as well.

But, there is a good need for a few other Hill boards with little cover. Think PTO, where heavy woods surrounded the hills, but the hills were pretty naked otherwise (Guadalcanal, Burma).
 

DWPetros

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What good are Armored Trains if there are no RR tracks to run on?
If MMP does not want the small RR Station map, please send to me for publication.
Steve, I do like the small RR Station idea so hold on. The issue is - printed RR lines or expect players to use Overlays? Personally, I'd like to see at least one standard geoboard that would have the onboard artwork RR track run from (short) side to side and forget about trying to have it mate with other geoboards.
 

von Marwitz

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Steve, I do like the small RR Station idea so hold on. The issue is - printed RR lines or expect players to use Overlays? Personally, I'd like to see at least one standard geoboard that would have the onboard artwork RR track run from (short) side to side and forget about trying to have it mate with other geoboards.
I think a printed RR with a RR station (that would also allow for some decent artwork for platforms) is something that would be of good use.

von Marwitz
 

DWPetros

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Very good point. I have thought the same numerous times in the past.
The main reason for this is that from a wooded hill you won't see anything at a lower height.
This means that the cover on those hills need to be carefully "constructed" to provide an interesting variety of LOS (which is not too limited).
Indeed, this would be worth embarking on.
von Marwitz
Balancing the application of terrain with playability - is a subject of itself. This is especially true with Rout destination. Do you place Woods or Buildings less realistically but more freely than the kind of actual terrain you're trying to show? Straddling 'game' vs. 'realism' is part of the challenge. There's a balance somewhere here.
 

DWPetros

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Overlays are like tools in the tool box. There are certain designers who will never use overlays or will only when their design demands* use for balance. There are other designer who will use them to create the best feel for the battle, and then there are those in between. Overlays like canals (would be) and RR are and really streams / wadis are probably more likely to get used b/c the battle specifically calls for it as a feature. They also tend to be easy to place as streams will connect to streams, and RRs link to RRs and players see how they build. Whereas within one scenario orders to place overlay OG1 here and WD 4 there, and B6 thus, can be form some a task.

Also if you create such overlays, then to account for things like "set amid hamlet" then the hamlet should be part of certain canal overlays, so the designer then does not have to build the hamlet via more overlays set along side the canal, if you see what I mean.
I've always wanted to study whether Overlays have been used much.
 

Eagle4ty

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My impression is that there are some large hill boards with too much terrain (ie. B15, the one with all the Woods, etc.). That said, I think that there is a need for some new Hill boards with heavy cover - weather Woods or Buildings. There are a number of Hill/Village boards sketched which show Ukrainian towns (like at the Kursk southern salient), PTO villages along a ridgeline, Italian villages on Hillsides, and some new Normandy Hills with Bocage. So, at least they're in sketch format - and Tom has colorized a few as well.

But, there is a good need for a few other Hill boards with little cover. Think PTO, where heavy woods surrounded the hills, but the hills were pretty naked otherwise (Guadalcanal, Burma).
One type of hills that have not been represented (to the best of my knowledge) is razor-back ridges. Not sure if this would have to include a new terrain type or could be implemented with existing terrain features. In my mind's eye I envision something akin to a Sand-Dune approach but perhaps another avenue would be better. These types were certainly encountered in New Guinea, Central Pacific Islands, Hungary/Romania, and Caucasus Mountains. I realize scenarios would have to be developed to make these these a creditable addition to our terrain availability packets, but then again the old adage of build it and they will come may hold true as well.
 

DWPetros

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One type of hills that have not been represented (to the best of my knowledge) is razor-back ridges. Not sure if this would have to include a new terrain type or could be implemented with existing terrain features. In my mind's eye I envision something akin to a Sand-Dune approach but perhaps another avenue would be better. These types were certainly encountered in New Guinea, Central Pacific Islands, Hungary/Romania, and Caucasus Mountains. I realize scenarios would have to be developed to make these these a creditable addition to our terrain availability packets, but then again the old adage of build it and they will come may hold true as well.
Right - I agree - razorback ridges. I've sketched a few. Here's one.

1547761966482.png
 

DWPetros

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Don,
Do you envision the hill-top/ridge hexes to still be the plateaued effect or would they be represented with a hexside ridge or cliffs to represent the precipitous nature of the ridge?
Not sure. I think you could have both. I would go with the one that likely would get the most usage - something that could work for a number of battles vs. just one or two notable ones. Biggest bang for the buck approach. I favor the hilltop ridge, but with a slightly plateaued approach. I don't like the stair-step of the normal hills either, nor do I like Slopes (too complicated). Minimizing the plateau effect seems best by keeping each level to one hex wide.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Right, I think you mentioned this Polder idea sometime ago? I remembered it and have sketched a number of them. I had in mind 'The Crossroads' from BoB, which showed these raised roadways. Also, I've sketched the Causeway at Carentan (Fort-style board) that would be cool to have. I've basically kept the roadways at Level 0, but make the other terrain -1. Not sure this is the best solution. How would you sketch the Polder yourself?
I would tend to yield to the actual artists like yourself, Repetti, etc.. On the face of it, a relatively flat board (mostly common to see this stuff in Netherlands, the plains around Carentan, etc.,). I guess the danger is that it just becomes another Board 4, so I suppose it would depend what else you include on the board. Might be an idea to combine with another thing burning in your artist's heart - a unique kind of village, for example. You mention a causeway, could be an interesting combo that would make some logical sense. (Discussed in another thread how the causeway between Walcheren Island and South Beveland in the western Netherlands was the site of very interesting fighting first in 1940 then again in 1944).
 

Michael Dorosh

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Not sure what you mean by diagonal .
Guys who designed scenarios for the Combat Mission computer game (I was one) found that there was a lot of interest in setting objectives and axes of advance at a diagonal to the playing surface. ASL maps by their nature tend to be channeled either down or across a map from side to side. Be neat to see terrain that requires a diagonal approach across the map. The idea in CM was to prevent the use of the board edge as a safe space. (The term was "board-edge creep".)
 

M.Koch

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I think a printed RR with a RR station (that would also allow for some decent artwork for platforms) is something that would be of good use.

von Marwitz
We have 10z and 17z... Maybe using existing boards with the needed transformations?
Overlays are also welcome...
And btw, we NEED more Fort-style boards !
 

Tuomo

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Don,
Do you envision the hill-top/ridge hexes to still be the plateaued effect or would they be represented with a hexside ridge or cliffs to represent the precipitous nature of the ridge?
I tried that with an early iteration of the Korea geoboards. The PT group decided to pass.

But yeah, it looked cool :) Problem is, when you enable that kind of "hexside hill" (which is just the reverse of hexside valleys, which we already have), you immediately fall into needing to use "River crestlines" for hills. Which is legal and covered in the rulebook, but represents an evolutionary path not taken. That is, people don't like them, don't know how to play them, because they're not used. And they're not used because people don't like them, don't know how to play them.

One day I'd like to make a No Excuses hill board that uses them, because it would feel good. Not the ridiculous LOS labryinth that board 25 represents, but just some nice, rugged, realistic terrain that happens to use hexside hills and valleys as well as river crestlines on hills. It would be subtly different than what we're used to, visually, but more importantly, the tactical considerations of hexside hills are interesting.
 

Doug Kirk

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Rolling hills lightly brushed/wooded/orchards, think board 18 without the gully. Use a Fort board for a little more space to spread out the hills, at least 3 if not 4 small hills.
 

Eagle4ty

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I tried that with an early iteration of the Korea geoboards. The PT group decided to pass.

But yeah, it looked cool :) Problem is, when you enable that kind of "hexside hill" (which is just the reverse of hexside valleys, which we already have), you immediately fall into needing to use "River crestlines" for hills. Which is legal and covered in the rulebook, but represents an evolutionary path not taken. That is, people don't like them, don't know how to play them, because they're not used. And they're not used because people don't like them, don't know how to play them.

One day I'd like to make a No Excuses hill board that uses them, because it would feel good. Not the ridiculous LOS labryinth that board 25 represents, but just some nice, rugged, realistic terrain that happens to use hexside hills and valleys as well as river crestlines on hills. It would be subtly different than what we're used to, visually, but more importantly, the tactical considerations of hexside hills are interesting.
In my mind's eye I was envisioning something more akin to the current Sand Dunes. That is to say the spine of the ridge could be along the hexside rather than inside the hex (though I see no major problem there either) and treated somewhat like Bocage (a full level higher than the hex terrain) or a wall/hedge (defined as either height by SSR?). I think this would be a reasonable approach that would allow some feel for such terrain quite commonly found in hilly conditions, while at the same time implementing a feature that would be relatively easy to handle rule wise as it would be to implement it in play. The general idea came form the old PL/PB slope ridge-lines and could have a similar or slightly modified effect. I realize that use of Walls/Hedges could actually fit the bill just as nicely, but the act of putting Walls/Hedges on a map to represent such ridges may be entirely out of sync with the aesthetics of the general nature of the terrain.
 

Tuomo

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In my mind's eye I was envisioning something more akin to the current Sand Dunes. That is to say the spine of the ridge could be along the hexside rather than inside the hex (though I see no major problem there either) and treated somewhat like Bocage (a full level higher than the hex terrain) or a wall/hedge (defined as either height by SSR?). I think this would be a reasonable approach that would allow some feel for such terrain quite commonly found in hilly conditions, while at the same time implementing a feature that would be relatively easy to handle rule wise as it would be to implement it in play. The general idea came form the old PL/PB slope ridge-lines and could have a similar or slightly modified effect. I realize that use of Walls/Hedges could actually fit the bill just as nicely, but the act of putting Walls/Hedges on a map to represent such ridges may be entirely out of sync with the aesthetics of the general nature of the terrain.
Agreed. Seems like a thing that should naturally fall into the ecosystem of what's out there. And yet, I also find myself thinking we'd need some kind of rules for going HD behind such a ridge, because yeah, that's also a natural thing. Perhaps one could use and modify the Dune Crest (F7.51) rules as appropriate.
 

DPetros

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I'm sketching a number of ideas above (RR station, ravine, diagonal hills, other), but will not be able to post for about a week. Good stuff, and keep it coming :) Looking for PTO related ideas also. Seems we're pretty shallow there.
 

dlazov

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Question, is DWPetros your brother? Or are you the same or different?
 
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