"Generic" Critical Hit Historical Modules: A New Thing?

[Robin Reeve]

I don't like the idea of doing the playtest, the proofing, etc. in the place of the producer.
And the prices of CH give me the impression of buying a Mini Metro for the cost of a Cadillac.

 

[Brad M-V]

> In this case, it would seem that you as a player are free to alter the elements of a scenario if you feel it doesn't meet your expectations.

This is one of the very few things I can think of that might justify CH's behavior. There used to be a mindset (maybe descended from miniatures?) where players had more "ownership", I guess, of the scenario, and expected to tweak things to suit their tastes. I don't hear much about that kind of thing anymore, but in that light, CH is just cranking out raw product and supplying it to those who are gonna modify it anyway, so they don't really need a lot of polishing.

At least, that's what I gleaned from reading CH blurbs here and there, many moons ago. I could be wrong, but it struck me as a possible non-nefarious explanation for why they might just push out lots of raw product without much quality control. "Hey, we provide the maps, counters, and some general guidelines. YOU make them your own."

Course, it would be more honest if they just came right out and said that, and didn't charge the prices they do, but hey. Just thinking of possibilities. I put about 2% credence to this thought, with the other 98% going to avarice and laziness.

Well said. In the emails RT sends out weekly, he stated this very concept in his unique way of describing such things. I recall him saying this method of playing ASL on a historical map with all of the units who were there and partook, as being an alternate way of experiencing that battle instead of playing it in the traditional CG format. He likens the traditional CG format to ordering from a Chinese food take-out menu (ordering a little of this and a little of that) verse a smorgasbord of having whatever you want when you want it. <g> You basically rewrite your own history of the battle... if playing solo, possibly this concept may be of more interest.

This approach relies heavily on your tactical choices alone to generate a plausible battle experience, so I can understand why many will not like this concept. If they can create enough enjoyment to justify their cost then they pay for themselves. But yeah, they're not cheap considering you throw all caution to the wind based on a cool looking map and situation. I've enjoyed what I have bought so far. No complaints yet. ;-)

 

[Pitman]

Well said. In the emails RT sends out weekly, he stated this very concept in his unique way of describing such things. I recall him saying this method of playing ASL on a historical map with all of the units who were there and partook, as being an alternate way of experiencing that battle instead of playing it in the traditional CG format. He likens the traditional CG format to ordering from a Chinese food take-out menu (ordering a little of this and a little of that) verse a smorgasbord of having whatever you want when you want it. <g> You basically rewrite your own history of the battle... if playing solo, possibly this concept may be of more interest.

This approach relies heavily on your tactical choices alone to generate a plausible battle experience, so I can understand why many will not like this concept. If they can create enough enjoyment to justify their cost then they pay for themselves. But yeah, they're not cheap considering you throw all caution to the wind based on a cool looking map and situation. I've enjoyed what I have bought so far. No complaints yet. ;-)

You do not differentiate between the rhetoric and the reality. He stopped doing campaign games because they took time to playtest and develop and even back then he was short on playtesters. Only much later did he come up with that rationalization for what he had already long since done.

If you don't have any complaints yet, that can only be because of a peculiar blindness to quality.

 

[Justiciar]

....This approach relies heavily on your tactical choices alone to generate a plausible battle experience, so I can understand why many will not like this concept ...

But anyone with a smattering of knowledge about tactics knows, the tactical battlefield commander is at the short end of the stick and does not get "choices" on a smorgasbord of units, weapons and so on. That is why the constraints of cost, allowances, weather, time frame, and so on found in "traditional CG", add the friction...and create an operational level feel...CG tend to lean towards the operational level (though not all CG are so) in this regard.

While players often dislike the removal of 'control' in ordinary scenarios, one of the enjoyments of CGs is that they have to manage a level of 'friction' to their 'control' and this is what gives the CG its added element.

If I was the tactical commander and had on call whatever I needed to skin the cat, CGs would last exactly one Date.

 

[bprobst]

As long as you match your expectations to the tier of product that you buy you don't have an issue.

If my expectation is that the product will be a steaming pile of shit, why would I spend any amount of money on it?

Or flip it around: at the prices that CH products are sold for, the expectation is that they will be top-tier and nigh-on flawless -- and that furthermore, CH must have done quite a bit in research and development of the product. The reality is always, always, a product that is deeply flawed at best, and typically showing virtually no evidence of any research and development. Recent products show CH virtually gloating about how they can steal ideas from other people and get away with it, even be praised for it and rewarded by people throwing money at them.

The market should have doomed CH to extinction a long time ago.

 

[Martin Mayers]

If my expectation is that the product will be a steaming pile of shit, why would I spend any amount of money on it?

Or flip it around: at the prices that CH products are sold for, the expectation is that they will be top-tier and nigh-on flawless -- and that furthermore, CH must have done quite a bit in research and development of the product. The reality is always, always, a product that is deeply flawed at best, and typically showing virtually no evidence of any research and development. Recent products show CH virtually gloating about how they can steal ideas from other people and get away with it, even be praised for it and rewarded by people throwing money at them.

The market should have doomed CH to extinction a long time ago.

Totally agree with you. And the only answer I can ever come up with is that the people who buy his stuff are ever so slightly mis-wired.

I mean...Christ. I have listened to people slag the product off them admit to having bought more recent stuff than that which they slagged off. That's just absolutely, umm, beyond WEIRD behaviour. I'll never understand it.

 

[Brad M-V]

You do not differentiate between the rhetoric and the reality. He stopped doing campaign games because they took time to playtest and develop and even back then he was short on playtesters. Only much later did he come up with that rationalization for what he had already long since done.

If you don't have any complaints yet, that can only be because of a peculiar blindness to quality.

Yes it's true, I have a peculiar blindness to quality still, but I'm happy to say it's been slowly disappearing as I get my hands on MMP gear. ;-) In the last six months I managed to get my hands on Rising Sun, a new BV, Yanks plus the reprinted FB. Before that I've been gaming what I could (excluding CH purchases and SKs) with an old FKaC and BV. I tried to get a 2nd edition FKaC last week with a bid of $200 U.S but was out done by a $330 bid. Everything else has been even more ridiculously priced. At the $200 U.S with the $50 shipping and duty, I was still willing to pay about $400 Canadian... if you cant wait for reprints and want true quality, you really pay through the nose for it! CH looks pretty cheap when you get an itch for something new. <g>

At least his year continues to look like another good one for reprints...

 

[Martin Mayers]

Yes it's true, I have a peculiar blindness to quality still, but I'm happy to say it's been slowly disappearing as I get my hands on MMP gear. ;-) In the last six months I managed to get my hands on Rising Sun, a new BV, Yanks plus the reprinted FB. Before that I've been gaming what I could (excluding CH purchases and SKs) with an old FKaC and BV. I tried to get a 2nd edition FKaC last week with a bid of $200 U.S but was out done by a $330 bid. Everything else has been even more ridiculously priced. At the $200 U.S with the $50 shipping and duty, I was still willing to pay about $400 Canadian... if you cant wait for reprints and want true quality, you really pay through the nose for it! CH looks pretty cheap when you get an itch for something new. <g>

At least his year continues to look like another good one for reprints...

There is so much good stuff out there....unless people have all of the BFP, FF, Schw, ESG, LC, LFT stuff, I can't honestly understand why anyone would pay a single penny to, as Mr P stated elsewhere 'enable' Critical Shit.

Anyway. I give up. I'm sorry for mouthing off.

 

[olli]

Jazz move this to the CH thread please?

 

[von Marwitz]

There is so much good stuff out there....unless people have all of the BFP, FF, Schw, ESG, LC, LFT stuff, I can't honestly understand why anyone would pay a single penny to CH.

This.

I have quite a lot of old CH stuff. Some decent scenarios among it.

But personally, I play ASL trying to optimize my chances (as far as my capacity goes... ). And I buy ASL stuff doing the same with regard for bang for the buck.

I have simply learned that my chances with BFP, FF, SP, and LFT to get best bang for the buck are better than with CH. With so many good stuff around I pass on CH. That way I will miss some nice maps that CH is capable of. But LC can do them as well for less or even 'For Fun'. That way, I will miss out on some of the 'diamonds' that can be found among the CH stuff. But chances are very highly likely, that I will find two or more diamonds for the same funds invested elsewhere.

Besides there is another reason that I pass on CH (and are considering to pass on other stuff as well with better bang for the buck): I know that it will be impossible to play everything I already have now until the end of my days. Actually, I personally preferred if the good stuff by MMP and other TPPs would be churned out at a somewhat slower rate. In the end, from a more encompassing standpoint, there is no sense in excess consumption. Or better said not even consumption but mere accumulation.

von Marwitz

 

[Brad M-V]

There is so much good stuff out there....unless people have all of the BFP, FF, Schw, ESG, LC, LFT stuff, I can't honestly understand why anyone would pay a single penny to, as Mr P stated elsewhere 'enable' Critical Shit.

Anyway. I give up. I'm sorry for mouthing off.

No apology needed, you were just expressing your opinions and did not attack me personally, you were simply expressing your views. Likewise, the following comments of mine are not directed at you or anyone else personally, but rather are just a venting of my personal frustrations experienced over the last six years. The only CH gear for ASL I have bought in the last two years has been the U.S & SS counter OBs, but I won't be buying anymore because I disliked the OD colour of the U.S and how washed-out the art looks, also the counter cutting is really poor as many are either cut wide or narrow or are cut tall or short... for that kind of money? Never again!

At any rate, My main purchases were based on my lack of counters. I'll repeat, I never had enough counters to play a lot of the scenarios from MMP or any other TPPs because I did not have the right counters. I only had the counters which came with the SK sets and the two used copies of FKaC & BV I bought six years ago. Yet, I still own every geoboard & scenario pack MMP has ever produced along with most of what BFP & LCP has produced. Until last year, I could only get the official MMP counters from FKaC and BV and the smattering of counters that come in the SK sets. I lost so many ebay bids over the years because I refused to bid higher then $200 U.S for them, which is still $300 Canadian. And even that is overboard imo.

So, I bought CH modules to get my hands on (you guessed it) U.S, Japanese, Axis & Allied counters, etc. With out the right counters, most of the items I own from MMP and BFP are completely useless. This past year is the first in the last six years that I can finally use at least 50% of the gear I bought from MMP, BFP & LCP because of the latest collection of MMP counters due to the sanely priced reprints MMP finally made. I challenge anyone to hide away their counters for all but three Nationalities for the next four years and see how peed-off they become... I'm so peed-off for how long it finally took me to get my hands on official counter sets that I could careless about the negative chant going out against CH now. CH provided me the counters when no other company gave a sheet (or two), so anyone trying to get me to give a rats arse are too late, sorry. ;-)

Speaking of rats, who here hating CH owns a copy of the LFT's Rat Charts? I know for a fact that MMP was and still are really peed-off over those! <G>

 

[von Marwitz]

Ah Brad, thanks for elaborating - now I understand! You were buying CH for the maps.

von Marwitz

 

[Brad M-V]

LOL, I knew you'd get it eventually! ;-)

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I am always interested in hearing from veteran ASLers with discerning eyes about the ASL products they have played.

What Mark is saying is that if he agrees with your opinion, he may consider it worth his time to quote you in support of himself.

 

[zgrose]

At any rate, My main purchases were based on my lack of counters. I'll repeat, I never had enough counters to play a lot of the scenarios from MMP or any other TPPs because I did not have the right counters. I only had the counters which came with the SK sets and the two used copies of FKaC & BV I bought six years ago. Yet, I still own every geoboard & scenario pack MMP has ever produced along with most of what BFP & LCP has produced.

Honest question: who are you playing against? It seems (to me) to be rather rare for two new guys to pick up this hobby at the same time.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Honest question: who are you playing against? It seems (to me) to be rather rare for two new guys to pick up this hobby at the same time.

Very true - newbies can join weekly games here without ever owning anything at all.

Rgds Jack

 

[volgaG68]

"Mark, are you looking for owners of the new CH products to give you feedback?"- Helmseye
"I am always interested in hearing from veteran ASLers with discerning eyes about the ASL products they have played."- Pitman

What Mark is saying is that if he agrees with your opinion, he may consider it worth his time to quote you in support of himself.

Michael, I am not defending Mark here, only the way in which intent/ comprehension/ interpretation are viewed over the internet, especially when not present to possibly hear the inflection used on certain words. I have bold-faced certain words in both posters' quotes to illustrate what ""I"" took from the initial exchange.

Helmseye did not use the specific word 'played', just 'owners'. In defense only of the sublime beauty of language use, I took the bold-faced end of Pitman's reply to mean, 'no, ownership is not good enough, I want to hear from those who have played it'. ""I"" believe Mark said it in such a way as to NOT be insulting while still conveying his point. As a single entity, Mark will (and does!) provide a nearly exhaustive breakdown of the contents and their visceral quality. Mark has seen and evaluated the components, so why would he want to hear someone else comment on them? They can go ahead and do that on their ASL-review site.

We all know there is a none-too-small minority of people who buy everything ASL yet rarely, if ever, play any of it. Mark does not play everything he reviews, far from it, but he flat out states that. However, he invites commentary from those who have, and often adds it into the commentary on his site to reflect what the ASL community may have discovered when putting counters to map to scenario.

Michael, I am not saying that you misinterpreted both of their posts, it could just as easily be me who has done so. I am only giving ""MY"" interpretation, and when initially read, that is how I immediately took it. Far too much ASL product adulation rests on appearance when it has not been played. It reminds me of an old thread where the OP asked if anyone had played LFT's OC: St. Nazaire module, and what they thought of it. He specifically asked about how it played. There were at least two pages of replies fawning over the artwork, the map, and how cool the scenarios "looked"; not one reply as to how it played, like the OP asked for. So after two pages the OP basically asked, "So, no one has actually played this?". Oddly, and sadly, his plaintive re-request was the final post on the thread. Perhaps later readers of that thread who had "pretty/precious" reviews realized that was not what he was asking for. Knowing they themselves had not played it yet either, no one else chose to reply to his final request.

I believe Mark's response might have been somewhat different if Helmseye had originally asked, "Mark, are you looking for people who have played the new CH products to give you feedback? [Familiar with many of Helmseye's posts, I know that he does actually play a lot of the CH material, but that was not what he asked Mark.] Yes, as ASL rulebook readers, we all engage in very strict parsing of words, and some like myself do so in face-to-face conversation as well, though sometimes the misunderstanding is due to not choosing the exact wording you wished to use; not because it was purposefully done so. I am occasionally guilty of this myself, and I am sure someone will likely misinterpret something in this post as well...

 

[ecz]

while I think that several good CH! scenarios exist for statistical reasons (given the huge production numbers) I also think the laws of the free market should make their work without artificial interferences . If CH! still stays on the market more power to it! The average ASL player has all the tools to decide what/why to buy or not to buy, and even the below -average player should. Personally I have nothing from CH! and I live happy but, as Robin said, we are in a free world. More or less.

 

[Brad M-V]

Honest question: who are you playing against? It seems (to me) to be rather rare for two new guys to pick up this hobby at the same time.

My playing of ASL so far has been primarily solo. I have played the SKs with my brother only, but I've finally convinced him to start playing beyond those... time will tell I guess. My focus with board games is to keep me off the CPU, so do not do VASL. I support the companies producing ASL products by buying it, and although it's legal to use VASL or even the original board game itself with someone else not owning it, my guess is there are players using VASL to play a product that neither player owns...

I like large scenario's or CGs with lots of counters per side, then I'll play a few hours when I feel like it by leaving it setup. It can take a few hours just to play through one turn, but I'm also sitting there reading the rules when required, so I find it's a fun way to learn and enjoy the game. I'll go to an ASL event someday and get some real H2H gaming done for the challenge that obviously creates, in the meanwhile I don't let the lack of another local player keep me from enjoying this game, it plays very well solo IMO.

 

[zgrose]

My playing of ASL so far has been primarily solo.

Cool, just wondering what was driving your choices.