Gavin Take

[WAMedic]

Being new to full ASL (transitioning from SK) I have been looking at some of the scenarios recommended for beginners and AAR's posted about them. A question popped into my head when looking at Gavin Take. SSR says M2 is Rubble prior to the start. Since M2 contains the stairwell for that building, does that mean all upper levels in N1 and N2 are now inaccessible?

 

[Robin Reeve]

Indeed.
And you cannot set up units in it, as none have scaling capacity.

 

[Larry]

B24.3 -- Rubble can never have a building level above it

the upper levels no longer exist.

 

[Robin Reeve]

B24.3 -- Rubble can never have a building level above it

the upper levels no longer exist.

He was evoking the two other hexes of the building.

 

[Larry]

He was evoking the two other hexes of the building.

ah ... right.

 

[WAMedic]

Thanks for confirming what I suspected. The reason for asking, I saw an AAR where there were units in Level 1 of N2. Got me to thinking that wouldn't be possible if the stairwell was destroyed. Feels good to know at least a part of this is starting to click.

 

[Robin Reeve]

The AAR was wrong on that point.
Here is the rule stating that a unit may not set up in a Location that ot could not reach during the normal course of play :

A2.9 SETUP LIMITATIONS: A unit/weapon may not set up overstacked or in a hex it could not enter during the normal course of play,

 

[Philippe D.]

Note that by itself, this rule does not prohibit set up in a Location that is unenterable, only in a hex. If Infantry is allowed to set up in the level 0 Location, it seems this rule does not prohibit setup in the higher level. Klas' collected Q&A has a reference to this possible correction, with the answer "we will take that under advisement" (so I'd say, it seems that currently, the rule as printed stands).

 

[Robin Reeve]

Would you allow a unit to set up in a Location that it cannot enter?
I certainly would not.
I would believe that by having a SSR place rubble in 3M2, the designer wanted to prohibit German units to set up in higher levels and strongly hinder the American progression.

 

[Philippe D.]

I believe the rule should be amended to say "location"; but I also believe that this decision has not been taken by whoever decides what the rules are.

It is also quite likely that whenever you see such a SSR, this is the designer's intent.

But if you don't allow setup in such a Location, you are still using a house rule. Note that there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[Robin Reeve]

One could argue that the hex is not accessible in its upper levels.
So it is and is not accessible.
Whatever you do it is at the same time playing along the rules and using a house rule.
Schrödinger rules.

 

[buser333]

In any case, this is all a moot point for this scenario as that building is outside the German setup area anyway.

 

[Robin Reeve]

In any case, this is all a moot point for this scenario as that building is outside the German setup area anyway.

I checked and you are right.
So how could the AAR have units go up there ?

 

[WAMedic]

The AAR had American units up there. Which means they entered the map and made their way over to that location moving up to Level 1.

 

[RandyT0001]

I think there is an invisible SSR printed in lemon juice.

SSR 4: Scaling (B23.424) is permitted by any infantry unit, regardless of necessity of training or equipment, in 3N1 and 3N2, due to total coverage of the building hexes by ivy.

There are no inherent stairs to go up to level 1 (B23.23).

 

[jrv]

SSR 4: Scaling (B23.424) is permitted by any infantry unit, regardless of necessity of training or equipment, in 3N1 and 3N2, due to total coverage of the building hexes by ivy.

Ahhhh! Take a MC! It's poison ivy!

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

ASL 135 ACTS OF DEFIANCE has that possibility of being able to set up in a 1st level Location although all printed stairwells are rubbled because you can enter that Location from another 1st level Location. Played this one at a tournament and it was ruled it was legal to set up in such a Location because the player could enter the Location during play (as the rule states) from another level 1 location even though I could not get up to level 1 to get at him. Lost the scenario because I just couldn't go after him & the building was too big to completely surround with the forces in that area I had left at scenario end. Even tough the unit at a higher level may be Upper Level Encircled (A7.72) it can be a game winning tactic. It is especially tough for the opposing player if he has HIP capability (at least 3 such scenarios that I have played spring to mind). NOTE TO SELF: If allowed to place rubble, don't necessarily rubble all stairwell locations.

 

[Bad Dice]

I read all of this while hearing Sean Connnery in my head.

 

[Larry]

ASL 135 ACTS OF DEFIANCE has that possibility of being able to set up in a 1st level Location although all printed stairwells are rubbled because you can enter that Location from another 1st level Location. Played this one at a tournament and it was ruled it was legal to set up in such a Location because the player could enter the Location during play (as the rule states) from another level 1 location even though I could not get up to level 1 to get at him. Lost the scenario because I just couldn't go after him & the building was too big to completely surround with the forces in that area I had left at scenario end. Even tough the unit at a higher level may be Upper Level Encircled (A7.72) it can be a game winning tactic. It is especially tough for the opposing player if he has HIP capability (at least 3 such scenarios that I have played spring to mind). NOTE TO SELF: If allowed to place rubble, don't necessarily rubble all stairwell locations.

A unit/weapon may not set up overstacked or in a hex it could not enter during the normal course of play,

I don't think that entry during the normal course of play treats two adjacent locations as the focus of the rule. See, the unit can enter here from there and there from here. Those two locations are not enterable from any other location on the map. No. That is not what the rule means. The fact that you could not enter the location is proof that the unit should not be set up in that location. It is clever but a clever ploy that breaks the scenario.

 

[Larry]

acknowledging the contrary PS:

A2.9, B23.23, & B24. In pre-game, both sides get to setup rubble counters (B24) per SSR. As such, one side uses their counters to rubble all stairwell hexes in a multi-story building (B23.23) so that all the stairwells are no longer in play. If that building is within one side’s setup area, can they elect to set up eligible units in an upper level Location of that building? A. Yes.

Should A2.9 have errata applied so that it reads “A unit/weapon may not set up overstacked or in a LOCATION it could not enter during the normal course of play”? A. We will take that under advisement.