Game of Thrones discussion *Spoiler Alert*

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,310
Reaction score
3,277
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
While I would sometimes concur about reading the book(s) first, I often find that does not suit me, entertainment wise. A prime example was Herbert's Dune series, which though eventually palled a little bit for me, I did overall enjoy. The film adaptation utterly killed it for me. I tried some of LotR books, borrowed from friends, but they left me cold, I found it impossible to keep track of events, people and places, they sounded so alike. The films I did really enjoy despite bits of the Hobbit degenerating into slapstick comedy.

As I said I am a fan of good written SciFi, but fantasy is not my bucket of swill. What eventually broke down my instinctive resistance to GoT was the consistent and great acting and the muck and dirt filled settings.

In the end I found something a bit out of my comfort zone but still well worth the time and I would be loathe to spoil that by finding inconsistencies between screen and book. I am the type of pedant that would really spoil it for myself by that type of comparison. I'm afraid I'm just that type. YMMV

Battle Star Galactica started as a TV series, redone as a partial reboot, both a bit ... '80s amateurish, corny and was yet again rebooted as an excellent series with little in common with the originals and only then produced many books, but I agree books to screen to maybe finish the books is unusual.
 

Dave68124

Elder Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
905
Reaction score
402
Location
United States
Country
llUnited States
Not a big sci-fi fan, but I always enjoyed watching BattleStar Galactica as well.

With you on GoT - not into the fantasy stuff, but GoT seems well-grounded with fantasy thrown in at the edges to make it interesting. Wish I had more time to read, but do enough reading at work, that it is tough to come home and want to snuggle up with another book.
 

Sand Bar Bill

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
569
Reaction score
428
Location
Putin's backyard
Country
llUnited States
I told myself I would read at least the first book of GoT before seeing the series. As an adult, I never read fantasy though in my youth I did read Lord of the Rings and a few other fantasy books like the Earthsea Trilogy (whose plot I no longer remember at all).

As might be well expected, the GoT book is all plot and little character. I have started the book four times over. The fourth time finally took hold and I am about on page 500 after months of reading. There are so many characters in the book, so many "Sers", that I gave up tracking anybody but the main characters.

Separately, someone this week recommended to me "Godless" on Netflix. It sounded pretty dumb (a story of a western town of "women only" although it turns out there are plenty of men in the storyline). For the first 45 minutes of the first episode it was hard to follow but by the end... episode 1 was excellent and I don't even like westerns.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,310
Reaction score
3,277
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
I finally succumbed to Game of Thrones. I got myself a 7 season set as a birthday treat. I gave up on TV (5+?) years ago when my set died and a year or two later terrestrial broadcasting of TV ceased in Ireland.

I rarely buy TV series. The first for me was Battle Star Galactica and subsequent sets have been 4 seasons of Luther (Idris Elba) and the complete Sherlock Holmes (Jeremy Brett version) originally broadcast in the '80s-'90s. And that all. I used to buy a film about once a month or two pretty regularly (when they got cheap ;)) but these days its one or two a year, the last two were the 2 John Wicks, the Hobbit being the last 'big' bundles.

So what broke my resistance? Simply Youtube clips which impressed me both with the acting quality and grubby production realism. While I have read trunk loads of SciFi, fantasy is not really my bucket of swill.

Before anyone suggests, I will not read the books. I have had to many cases of bad transfers from book to screen. The few screen versions that did not disappoint were those that were only vaguely based upon short stories or similar, eg Blade Runner. I would simply be going "That's not what happened in the book, BASTARDS!" and it would kill the book or screen version or both for me.
 

Dr Zaius

Chief Defender of the Faith
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
May 1, 2001
Messages
8,900
Reaction score
516
Location
The Forbidden Zone
First name
Don
Country
llUnited States
Spoilers

Seems like they’re setting Daenerys up to become “the mad queen” or something like that.

Poor old Tormund...
 

Dr Zaius

Chief Defender of the Faith
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
May 1, 2001
Messages
8,900
Reaction score
516
Location
The Forbidden Zone
First name
Don
Country
llUnited States
Spoilers!

They shouldn't have even been there in the first place.

The combined allied army was mauled nearly to the point of utter destruction by the undead, losing almost the entire Dothraki force, half the unsullied, and roughly half of all the other allied forces. They also lost some key leaders, not to mention that the survivors are exhausted, both physically and mentally. The free folk have also abandoned the fight and are heading back north with Tormund.

You may or may not be aware of this, but in the real world losses of 50% are extremely rare, even in the ancient world. When a force takes 20-30% losses, that's severe and at that point discipline and cohesion rapidly fail and the whole unit becomes combat ineffective. Losses in the 50% range are almost always catastrophic, and units rarely survive to tell the tale. An entire army which loses 50% of its forces overnight is going to take a long, long time to recover. Yes, this is a fantasy environment, but up until now the show has more or less attempted to portray its armies in a somewhat realistic fashion.

From a military perspective, this means the battered survivors are now at rough parity with the defenders at King's Landing (which Tyrion openly admitted during the war planning meeting in episode 4). So the obvious move is to immediately drive their depleted forces south, without rest, resupply, or reinforcements.

WTF?

But it gets better. They split their forces into several parts, and due to weariness and lack of preparation or proper reconnaissance, promptly got ambushed and lost pretty much their entire navy, more of the unsullied, and one of two remaining dragons.

I can't really put into words just how reckless and reprehensible such a "plan" was. Honestly, this is just a complete and utter failure of leadership on every level.

For starters, defenders usually have every advantage in medieval style combat due to the lack of artillery or air power to reduce defensive positions. In the ancient world, it was common for an aggressor to need 3-1 or even 4-1 odds in order to break a determined defender in a fortress. But even with Jon and Daenerys' combined forces, they're maybe only a little better off than 1-1, and tired and wounded at that. And only half were there as Jon was still marching the other half south. So why in the name of Hades armpit would Daenerys even consider marching up to the walls (in the wake of losing her navy and another dragon) and demanding unconditional surrender? Such demands usually only work when made from a position of overwhelming strength. This whole sequence of events just stretches credulity well past the breaking point, and it should surprise absolutely no one that Cersie's response was a good old fashioned "F* y*" with a nice beheading to drive the point home.

In contrast, Cersei has played her hand well. She ruthlessly manipulated everybody else into fighting the undead for her and absorbing all the losses while she built defenses and fortified her position. She then took away her opponent's navy and felled another dragon, which went a long way toward evening the odds. Her defenses are strong, she's got close to 1-1 odds as a defender, and her army is fresh.

But of course Cersei is going to lose, we all know that...

Despite the utter and complete lack of anything even remotely resembling sound military thinking, the allies were saved by a deux ex at Winterfell, and no doubt that will happen in some fashion at King's Landing as well, because this is television drama.

It's a shame, because the show has been reasonably believable up to season 8. Yes, there have been some thrilling moments and good acting and all that, but none of it changes the fact that this whole season seems poorly written and rushed.
 
Last edited:

Gordon

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Messages
586
Reaction score
488
Country
llUnited States
Agreed, I wouldn't have considered saying this before season 7 and the rush to a conclusion, but I'm ready for GoT to be over. They could have achieved everything they needed to do to "even the odds" and not give Daenerys a "cake walk" to the Iron Throne without throwing all (military) logic and reason out the window.
 

Dr Zaius

Chief Defender of the Faith
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
May 1, 2001
Messages
8,900
Reaction score
516
Location
The Forbidden Zone
First name
Don
Country
llUnited States
Yeah, the writing has really nosedived. The problem is the show has now outpaced the books, so they're no longer following G.R.R. Martin's lead, the writers at HBO are just making it up as they go along.

Yes, the last few episodes were entertaining -- very much so at times. But unlike some classic films which can be watched over and over because they were so well crafted, season 8 is mostly just enjoyable because of the grand spectacle of it all.

It's sad, because it's apparently been confirmed that HBO offered the producers an unlimited schedule to do as many more episodes or seasons as they wanted. But they insisted on abruptly ending the season and shoehorning in numerous major battles and plot resolutions in just six episodes. Why? Because the two nitwits in charge have been hired by Disney to take over the ongoing Star Wars debacle, and so they're anxious to finish up with HBO and get over to Disney where they can really start raking in the big bucks. So they've crammed everything in, and the result seems a lot more like fan fiction than great fantasy.



 

Dr Zaius

Chief Defender of the Faith
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
May 1, 2001
Messages
8,900
Reaction score
516
Location
The Forbidden Zone
First name
Don
Country
llUnited States
Over 800,000 angry "Game of Thrones" fans petition to remake season 8

‘This was abysmal’: Nearly 1 million disgruntled ‘Game of Thrones’ fans demand a final season remake

It seems a lot of people were not happy with that last episode. The petition to reshoot the season now has almost one million signatures. Not that it will do a bit of good.

‘Game of Thrones’: How “The Bells” Proved These 9 Storylines Didn’t Actually Matter

Personally, I don't have a problem with how most of this stuff turned out. Even Daenerys' evolution into a genocidal maniac was foreshadowed, considering she's always been an entitled b**** who has a tendency to burn people who piss her off.

So my objection isn't so much with how the story went, but more that it all felt a little rushed and, at times, just way too convenient. Like the way Euron Greyjoy just happens to appear out of nowhere at a key moment. Don't get me wrong, pretty much everyone hates Euron and I wasn't sad to see him meet his doom. But the way it was done felt odd and a bit nonsensical (he's never shown an interest in Jaime before, so why the sudden all-consuming hate?). Not to mention he put 12" of steel into Jaime, not once but twice, and Jaime still managed to walk away from it with a "That's all 'ya got, bro?" Yeah, I'm calling BS here.

Mothers who named their daughters 'Khaleesi' in shock after Game of Thrones character turns to the dark side

Well, that was silly.

Perhaps they should have named their sons Varys instead, as Lord Varys turned out to be prescient after all. Not to mention he's one of the only characters in Game of Thrones who suffered terrible cruelty in his childhood as well as an adult, but is still a good guy who is willing to risk his own position and life for the common good. Jon Snow and Tyrion should build a statue to Varys, assuming they survive the looming consequences of their own naiveté...
 

Gordon

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Messages
586
Reaction score
488
Country
llUnited States
See my previous post, at least it's over ...
 

Dr Zaius

Chief Defender of the Faith
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
May 1, 2001
Messages
8,900
Reaction score
516
Location
The Forbidden Zone
First name
Don
Country
llUnited States
I know some people thought it was okay. But from where I sit, that finale was a debacle.

MSN: 'Game of Thrones' fiasco: Shareholders would have a good case to sue in court

MSN Opinion said:
No, the final season of “Game of Thrones” wasn’t a disappointment.

It was an insult.

This fiasco was, of course, an insult to the tens of millions of fans who had invested so much time and energy in this series over eight extraordinary years.

But in a more tangible sense, it was also an insult to the many more who own stock in HBO’s parent company, AT&T (T) If you have money in a regular U.S. index fund, that includes you.

The final season was a disaster. Talk about blowing an opportunity. Never have so many exciting characters met such boring deaths. Never have so many brilliant possibilities been thrown away. Never has so much time, money and talent been wasted mailing something in.

It took them two years to make this?

How fitting that someone accidentally left a Starbucks coffee cup in one scene and a couple of water bottles in another. Did anyone actually watch this thing before broadcasting?

A few diehard fans are defending how the series ended. But almost no one is praising it...
 

Sparafucil3

Elder Member
Staff member
Moderator
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
9,123
Reaction score
1,741
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
I agree with the assessment of wasted opportunity. This could have been so much more. I saw a meme: 7 years for winter to come and it's over in an hour. That about sums it up. All that build up and little to know delivery. It's like even the cast and crew were fatigued by it all and wanted to move on. -- jim
 

Gordon

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Messages
586
Reaction score
488
Country
llUnited States
From my point of view, I don't have a huge issue where all the pieces ended up on the chess board (except for a few exceptions), I just feel the last 2 seasons the show shifted from using careful, deliberate chess moves to get there to just waving their hands and placing the pieces where they wanted them to end up.
 

Dr Zaius

Chief Defender of the Faith
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
May 1, 2001
Messages
8,900
Reaction score
516
Location
The Forbidden Zone
First name
Don
Country
llUnited States
Well, they ran out of source material. George R.R. Martin's novels were used for seasons 1-5, but seasons 6-8 were the work of Dan Weiss and David Benioff.

It seems pretty clear to me that once "D&D" took over, things started to make a lot less sense. And it got worse once they were hired by Disney to take over Star Wars. A lot of people are convinced they just wanted to get GoT over with as quickly as possible so they move on to bigger paydays at Disney.

I swear Disney literally ruins everything it touches.
 

liverani

Recruit
Joined
Jul 5, 2019
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Country
llEgypt
I agree with the assessment of wasted opportunity. This could have been so much more. I saw a meme: 7 years for winter to come and it's over in an hour. That about sums it up. All that build up and little to know delivery. It's like even the cast and crew were fatigued by it all and wanted to move on. -- jim
Got it!
 
Top