G12.674 Ramp_Unloading Infantry from LCVP

[Zugführer]

Assume there is a LCVP with a stack of three American 6-6-7 squads and a 8-0 leader as Passengers moving to Easy Red () during the American MPh. That LCVP runs Aground (G12.21) in a Shallow Ocean hex. The American player decides to unload the infantry stack in the Shallow Ocean hex.

If I understand the rule G12.674 aright the American player is allowed to put the four infantry units as a stack under the LCVP counter and to put a Ramp counter on top of the LCVP counter (because according to G12.674 now - after the first unloading - the Ramp is considered down).

The German player wants to Defensive First Fire at the unloaded infantry with an MMG in normal range operated by a HS.

Because the whole American stack is unloaded already, the infantry units does not count as Passengers of the LCVP any longer.

So, this would be a 4 FP column IFT attack with a DRM of +0 (DRM: -1 FFNAM, +1 AFV TEM).

Is that right?

 

[jrv]

I am not sure why you are mentioning G12.674, which is a collateral attack rule for passengers still loaded on a LC, because you don't mention any remaining passengers. As you say, the unloaded units are no longer passengers. The LC drops its ramp per G12.41 when it first unloads units. The MG can attack as non-ordnance, and it would attack all moving units (which would be the stack of former passengers and the LC). The infantry would be attacked at four FP +0. The LC would be attacked per G12.61, i.e. with no possibility of effect except for a collateral attack vs. any remaining passengers if within the CA of the LC per G12.674 and a collateral attack vs. the crew with the normal +2 CE DRM.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Note though that the Passengers can't unload in the same MPh as the LC runs Aground, as G12.21 seems to say the LC Bogs - "...i.e., it Bogs and Beaches in that hex...." - and Bogging ends a vehicle's MPh.

 

[Zugführer]

@ JR: I didn't know for sure whether I got the rule about the lowered ramp right or not. Therefore I mentioned the rule G12.674. It could have been that the Americans are not allowed to unload as a stack, so the Germans would be able to attack the not yet unloaded units while they were Passengers through the open ramp. Personally I think, a ruling like this would make more sense. I have the scenes of the movie "Saving Private Ryan" in my mind, when the Americans were shoot at while in the LC directly after the ramp fell down. This scene happened on that day in reality. But the ASL rules seem to ignore that, because the transported infantry in ASL is able to get off the LC and take it as cover (+1 TEM) immediately. That makes no sense and again, I think that is not how it really was.

@ Klas: Oh. I didn't notice that rule. So, in this MPh the Americans are not allowed to unload. They have to wait one turn. In the next American MPh they will be allowed to unload, but of course, if the American player has to wait for the unloading anyway, he can attempt to get the LC free and if he fails with the dr, he can unload the infantry units during that MPh. Is that correct?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...In the next American MPh they will be allowed to unload, but of course, if the American player has to wait for the unloading anyway, he can attempt to get the LC free and if he fails with the dr, he can unload the infantry units during that MPh. Is that correct?

Not sure whether you can spend any MP in the same MPh you become Mired/Fast-Aground.

 

[jrv]

Unloading is the same as vehicle unloading, i.e. everyone can unload at once. If you wanted to unload in "pulses," you would have to make separate MP expenditures for the vehicle too. The ASL scale (two or so minutes a turn) doesn't really lend itself to re-creating that particular scene because if it takes you two minutes to unload from your LC, perhaps you should go back and do some more training. Whether unloading units are more or less vulnerable to ones still on board depends on the unit. As you say, five FP flat for the shot on the unloaded units, but it's also five MP flat for units remaining on the LC. PRC are not subject to FFMO/FFNAM. The unloaded infantry are fanatic [G14.32], while units loaded on a LC have a ML of 8 [G12.122]. Both wading infantry [G14.32] and LC Passengers [G12.13] CR instead of breaking, so Marines would prefer to be wading, American first line would prefer to be passengers, and all seven ML units are indifferent between being a passenger and being a wader. The conversion of LLMC to LLTC might change this for some boats.

JR

 

[jrv]

Not sure whether you can spend any MP in the same MPh you become Mired/Fast-Aground.

Per A12.211 the LC can attempt to deground only at the start of its MPh.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Per A12.211 the LC can attempt to deground only at the start of its MPh.

Yes, I was merely wondering if the LC could spend any MP if it becomes Mired trying to get free.

 

[jrv]

Yes, I was merely wondering if the LC could spend any MP if it becomes Mired trying to get free.

Once it becomes mired it can attempt to unground with a +1 drm. Since it may attempt to unground only at the start of its MPh, it could not attempt to unground a second time in that same MPh.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The question was whether the Passengers could unload in the same MPh after a LC became Mired.

 

[Zugführer]

Look at D8.5. A bogged/immobilized vehicle may still unload PRC, if the Inherent Crew is not broken/stunned/shocked. So, I assume it is allowed to unload the Passengers of an previously Aground LC regardless of the LC became Mired or Fast Aground during the attempt to get free at the start of its MPh.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Look at D8.5. A bogged/immobilized vehicle may still unload PRC, if the Inherent Crew is not broken/stunned/shocked. So, I assume it is allowed to unload the Passengers of an previously Aground LC regardless of the LC became Mired or Fast Aground during the attempt to get free at the start of its MPh.

Depends on whether the LC spent any MP when it becomes Mired though.

 

[Zugführer]

The attempt to get free from Aground can only be made at the start of the LC's MPh (see G12.21). Either the LC is freed (dr 1-4) and the dr result represents the MP used to start in reverse movement, or the LC becomes Mired (dr 5), or the LC becomes Fast Aground (dr 6+).

In the cases of becoming Mired or Fast Aground, the LC does not spend any MP. So, I think it is allowed to unload Passengers after failing to get free. Or am I wrong?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...In the cases of becoming Mired or Fast Aground, the LC does not spend any MP. So, I think it is allowed to unload Passengers after failing to get free. Or am I wrong?

Seems such a LC should expend MP as well - but perhaps the rules isn't clear on that.

 

[Zugführer]

Ah ... Now I understand what You mean. You think that the Aground LC which attempts to get free spends 5 MP if the player rolls a 5 and the LC becomes Mired and then there would be no MP left over to unload any Passengers for the cost of 25% of the MP allotment. Right? Side note: The same would be true for a dr result of 6 when the LC becomes Fast Aground and the question is, if the LC spends 6 MP or not.

When I think about it I would say that the LC indeed spends the MP. The rule is: "Removal is attempted by expending as its Start MP an amount of MP equal to an Original dr [...]" So, if the player attempts the removal the LC expends Start MP equal to the dr even if the player rolls a 5 or 6. The rules don't say that the MP are not expended if a 5 or 6 is rolled.

My concern of this thread was the ruling about the LCVP whose ramp is down providing the +1 AFV TEM for the just unloaded infantry. The rule D9.3 gives exceptions from a vehicle providing cover: "[...] or that AFV would be subject to TH Case J [...] if at that moment it were to be fired on by ordnance [...]." That would be true for a moving LCVP that unloads infantry. So, the LCVP would not provide the cover. But unfortunately D9.3 has an exception from the exception: "[EXC: Armored Assault; units Abandoning/Surviving/unloading/Bailing-Out from an AFV]". So, that means the LCVP indeed gives the +1 AFV TEM.

I wish they had excepted the attacks from within the VCA of a LC whose ramp is down from the exceptions of D9.3, so that there would be no +1 AFV TEM. But this is not the case.