bendizoid
Official ***** Dickweed
Oh please don't put me on the ignore list with Dorosh. Tell me about Isreali and American war crimes. I still would rather surrender to Americans. I don't think that is a harsh statement.
Oh please don't put me on the ignore list with Dorosh. Tell me about Isreali and American war crimes. I still would rather surrender to Americans. I don't think that is a harsh statement.
Yeah they're all the same, Commies, Nazis, democracies. I can't tell the difference.The lucky Germans surrendered earlier. They got shipped to the US and even got paid to work (if they wanted), and even spend money in the stores. The poor saps at the end, including all the old men and kids, got treated like animals.
All nations committed war crimes in my opinion.
And anyone, especially someone that postures himself as some sort of 'Wargame Historian' is laughably out of touch if he thinks GI's did not shoot some prisoners. There are famous cases of the Airborne units bayoneting Germans to see what it was really like (they scream).
I never thought about it so I guess I don't know what I would do. Thanks for the lecture on American war crimes.I didn't say they were same. I can tell the difference.
If you surrendered to "The Americans", and they said "Ha, we are killing POWs today!"...would you rather be shot right off, starved in an open camp, tossed into a melting asphalt street by a firestorm, or irradiated?
From WP:Don is not saying that at all, but you try to make the separation from a 'Ruse d'gurre' and someone who is wearing an enemy uniform as a spy or just becuase he is cold and his coat as the bullets start to fly, or do you expect that once the men trying to carry out the 'Ruse d'guerre' have been made, that you allow them to remove the uniforms before you open up?
The point has never been that the Western Allies *never* shot anyone. The point is always that the Germans (and the Russians) made it a matter of policy to commit atrocities. I suspect there is quite a difference.oh and all sides shot POW during ww2, we in the west get all squirmy and try to underplay it as we won, but we did our fair share.
the GC is very clear, if you are caught on the battlefield wearing the uniform of the enemy then you can expect little mercy, hence why anyone who does so is as far as i am concerned deserving of all he gets, same as you do not use an enemy wep unless it is 100% the only thing to use.From WP:
(Otto Skorzeny) and nine officers of the 150th Panzer Brigade faced charges of improper use of U.S. military insignia, theft of U.S. uniforms, and theft of Red Cross parcels from U.S. POWs. The trial lasted over three weeks. The charge of stealing Red Cross parcels was dropped for lack of evidence. Skorzeny admitted to ordering his men to wear U.S. uniforms; but his defence argued that, as long as enemy uniforms were discarded before combat started, such a tactic was a legitimate ruse de guerre. On the final day of the trial, 9 September, Wing Commander F. F. E. Yeo-Thomas, recipient of the George Cross and the Croix de guerre, and a former British Special Operations Executive agent, testified that he and his operatives wore German uniforms behind enemy lines. Realising that convicting Skorzeny could expose their own agents to the same charges, the Tribunal acquitted the ten defendants. The Tribunal drew a distinction between using enemy uniforms during combat and for other purposes including deception. They could not prove that Skorzeny had given any orders to actually fight in U.S. uniforms.
The point has never been that the Western Allies *never* shot anyone. The point is always that the Germans (and the Russians) made it a matter of policy to commit atrocities. I suspect there is quite a difference.
Samuel Fuller tells a story (on the extras to the deluxe version of Big Red One) about a sergeant he knew personally who checked the weapons of German prisoners. If they still had bullets, he was okay with them. If they were out of ammo, he figured it meant they weren't sincere about giving up, and only did so because they ran dry. So he apparently gave them the works. Fuller was of course a paid story-teller, but a good one and I'd have no problem believing him.Yeah, I kinda thought the prisoner killing thing was unnessary because I stopped identifying with the hero, unless that's what the director was going for. I would think that not taking prisoners would ultimately lead to more casualties from increased fanatical resistance.
But then again there is a time and a place for everything. I read a story from WW1 where a soldier shot this surrendering German after he saw him kill his friend with a hidden pistol. "I aimed my rifle at him and filled him with the terror of death before I shot him in the stomach"
Can you provide the quote for the less educated among us?the GC is very clear, if you are caught on the battlefield wearing the uniform of the enemy then you can expect little mercy
The Hague Convention permits use of enemy uniforms, and says nothing about what anyone who does so may "deserve."hence why anyone who does so is as far as i am concerned deserving of all he gets, same as you do not use an enemy wep unless it is 100% the only thing to use.
If you're not aware of them, you should read up on the Commissar Order and the Commando Order. Both were forces-wide orders to kill unarmed enemy combatants. The former in force on the Eastern Front, the latter as a result of the raiding programme. Really the tip of the iceberg though. The killings committed by 1 LSSAH (and their cadre in the 12th SS) in Normandy, Malmedy, etc. resulted from that unit's standing orders in Russia.As to the Heer having a policy to commit atrocities, I do not know if it was official policy, out East for sure, it was a given, but against the west, I doubt it, even though both sides did so on a regular basis.
Can you provide the quote for the less educated among us?
Like many others you may be confusing he Hague Convention with the Geneva Conventions. The history of the Brandenburg Commandos mentions the Hague Convention.
Copies of the 1907 Convention are online:
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/1d1726425f6955aec125641e0038bfd6
Art. 23. In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden
(a) To employ poison or poisoned weapons;
(b) To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;
(c) To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
(d) To declare that no quarter will be given;
(e) To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;
(f) To make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention;
(g) To destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war;
(h) To declare abolished, suspended, or inadmissible in a court of law the rights and actions of the nationals of the hostile party. A belligerent is likewise forbidden to compel the nationals of the hostile party to take part in the operations of war directed against their own country, even if they were in the belligerent's service before the commencement of the war.
Art. 24. Ruses of war and the employment of measures necessary for obtaining information about the enemy and the country are considered permissible.
The Hague Convention permits use of enemy uniforms, and says nothing about what anyone who does so may "deserve."
Incidentally, one American unit is known to have dressed in German helmets and overcoats in an attempt to capture a Rhine bridge intact. IIRC they were spotted and the bridge blown, so their mission was not a success.
If you're not aware of them, you should read up on the Commissar Order and the Commando Order. Both were forces-wide orders to kill unarmed enemy combatants. The former in force on the Eastern Front, the latter as a result of the raiding programme. Really the tip of the iceberg though. The killings committed by 1 LSSAH (and their cadre in the 12th SS) in Normandy, Malmedy, etc. resulted from that unit's standing orders in Russia.
As a comparison, the worst Canadians managed to do was order German prisoners shackled at Dieppe. When the detailed ops order was found on the beach, Canadian POWs were handcuffed in German prison camps in retaliation. The Canadian official historian was aware of one war crime in the NW European campaign, when the Arygll and Sutherland Highlanders of 4 Cdn Armd Div burned the town of Friesoythe as a reprisal for the death of their C.O. It was rumoured he was shot in the back by a civilian, but it turned out a German soldier had encountered the CO and killed him with his machine pistol.
The Commando order was the same thing - it explicitly ordered that British commandos, even those who surrendered in the correct uniform, were to be executed.I am aware of the commissar order, but that was clearly in extremis, and as said out east anything went (this does not make it right in any way, but the East was something else, I think we can all agree on that).
The difference being that the Canadian chain of command didn't order any of these killings. The order to burn Friesoythe came from the division commander, Chris Vokes (and probably in character for him). If Canadian troops murdered POWs in Normandy, I tend to understand it was immediately following the heat of battle (or by simply refusing surrenders). By contrast, the Germans passed orders down the chain and willingly followed the orders, which were done after interrogations of the prisoners and in some cases where they had been removed to the rear. Mohnke's name features heavily, he was a battalion commander, but even divisional leadership had been implicated, most famously Meyer.and should be taken in that context, as to the worst Canadian soldiers did, look at Normandy, reprisals against 12th SS for what happened on the 7th June went on for a long time (LOAC funily enough forbids Reprisals as a rule of thumb) both 12th SS & 3rd CID murdered each others men on many occasions.
The Commando order was the same thing - it explicitly ordered that British commandos, even those who surrendered in the correct uniform, were to be executed.
The Germans had a death cult, basically. They shrouded it in language, but it was seen as a logical extension of their past history, dating to the Middle Ages really, that "partisans" and "bandits" etc. could legally be executed summarily. They had the same rules for their own soldiers, and executions for desertion numbered in the tens of thousands. By contrast, both Canada and the U.S. only executed one soldier apiece for military crimes, Eddie Slovik and Harold Pringle.
The difference being that the Canadian chain of command didn't order any of these killings. The order to burn Friesoythe came from the division commander, Chris Vokes (and probably in character for him). If Canadian troops murdered POWs in Normandy, I tend to understand it was immediately following the heat of battle (or by simply refusing surrenders). By contrast, the Germans passed orders down the chain and willingly followed the orders, which were done after interrogations of the prisoners and in some cases where they had been removed to the rear. Mohnke's name features heavily, he was a battalion commander, but even divisional leadership had been implicated, most famously Meyer.
I would put the German systematic extermination of people (10 million) as at the top of the war crimes committed in the western nations. But, I would also put the civilian population center bombings of the US, British and Canadians air forces as up in the top five. A point has been made that having 'no quarter' can make the opponent fight harder, and even to the bitter end.
It is also true that German military units were used to help in relief efforts after these bombing raids. It doesn't take 'Furia Germanicus' to motivate troops that see German children and women and old people ripped to shreds or suffocated or burned alive. Perhaps some people think that soldiers fight for their uniforms or some inane idea like that. They fight for each other so they can protect their people.
The Germans were not going to capitulate as a nation. The German military was going down no matter what. The Bombing murders of civilians in population centers in 1945 was a war crime that far exceeds some rash or drunken privates executing unarmed enemies. It was murder 1 in its intent and actions. It killed the least guilty or militarily involved, and it did nothing to hasten the war's end but may have actually motivated the enemy to fight further against the western nations. It probably helped insure that the Soviets would grab even more of Europe.