Frozen / Flooded stream

[VonHutier]

Regarding the above....in ASL SCENARIO AP151 "Probing Korsus", SSR1 states ..."The stream is flooded"...

It also states that "Deep snow ( E3.73 ) is in effect" ....

E3.722 states "Ground/Deep snow ....freezes all streams"...

So the flooded stream is frozen, right?
Makes a big difference to the Swedish setup if it is.

TIA

 

[Doug Leslie]

Your interpretation is correct. There is a Q&A which removes all doubt.

B20.7, B21.6, E3.71, & E3.722, Is a stream considered to be “designated as frozen” automatically if Ground Snow or Deep Snow are present? A. Yes.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I believe it would also be at Level 0 because it is Flooded.

 

[VonHutier]

Thanks guys !

 

[synicbast]

where it gets confusing is that it could be argued that the SSR overrides the Chapter E rule, because that is what SSRs do.

 

[Doug Leslie]

where it gets confusing is that it could be argued that the SSR overrides the Chapter E rule, because that is what SSRs do.

I don't see the conflict?

 

[synicbast]

A flooded stream is not necessarily frozen, and the SSR leaves it unclear whether the stream is to be considered both frozen and flooded. I agree it should be frozen and because it's specified as flooded that raises it to level 0 (probably the intent of the SSR) but what if the intent is that the stream state is contrary to the default state of all straams under deep snow, ie it is just flooded and not frozen.

 

[Doug Leslie]

A flooded stream is not necessarily frozen, and the SSR leaves it unclear whether the stream is to be considered both frozen and flooded. I agree it should be frozen and because it's specified as flooded that raises it to level 0 (probably the intent of the SSR) but what if the intent is that the stream state is contrary to the default state of all straams under deep snow, ie it is just flooded and not frozen.

It is up to the scenario designer to be clear about the position. Unless there is an errata, I think that we have to assume that the intention is for the stream to be treated effectively as open ground.

That is reinforced by the "overview" which says

The Svir Front had been calm for sometime, when the Swedish Volunteers in Avdelta Kompaniet arrived at the stream Jandeba. Occasional shelling was a nuisance, and a raid to locate the source of this problem was ordered. After a few days worth of preparations, Captain Richard Nilsson and a platoon of Swedes, supported by flank guards, silently moved into the woods south of the frozen Jandeba.

 

[synicbast]

It is up to the scenario designer to be clear about the position. Unless there is an errata, I think that we have to assume that the intention is for the stream to be treated effectively as open ground.

I aggree on all counts, as it is currently written, the SSR lacks enough clarity to put the issue to rest. I mean SSRs are the only way under the rules you can have non-frozen streams when Ground or Deep snow are in effect. (Not an uncommon situation, especially in the early spring)

 

[Doug Leslie]

I aggree on all counts, as it is currently written, the SSR lacks enough clarity to put the issue to rest. I mean SSRs are the only way under the rules you can have non-frozen streams when Ground or Deep snow are in effect. (Not an uncommon situation, especially in the early spring)

You beat me to the punch before I amended my previous post! The overview suggests that the scenario designer intended that the flooded steam be frozen.

 

[synicbast]

Context is everything, but a lot of people don't read the blurbs so I still say it needs to be clearly stated.

 

[VonHutier]

The Swedes set up on hexeow W ( mostly made up of stream hexes )- if the stream were not frozen, I believe they would all have to cross the bridge in the middle of the board or suffer ELR replacement if setting up elsewhere

 

[Robin Reeve]

And I think that the Replacement would mean that they are broken (the rule is fuzzy on that point).

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Not sure I see the issue here....

E3.722 TERRAIN: Ground/Deep Snow turns all marsh/mudflat terrain into Open Ground (B16.8), freezes all streams, and activates all Ice rules (B20.7, B21.6).

B20.7 FRIGID/FROZEN: If a stream is designated as frozen, it is treated as a dry stream regardless of depth [EXC: a flooded stream is still one level higher; 20.44].

Rule E3.722 designates the stream as frozen (freezes all streams), then the EXC in B20.7 kicks in.

 

[VonHutier]

And I think that the Replacement would mean that they are broken (the rule is fuzzy on that point).

I don't think do... I think it's just a basic exchange ( because it's not actually a MC/ELR failure )..

 

[VonHutier]

Not sure I see the issue here....

E3.722 TERRAIN: Ground/Deep Snow turns all marsh/mudflat terrain into Open Ground (B16.8), freezes all streams, and activates all Ice rules (B20.7, B21.6).

B20.7 FRIGID/FROZEN: If a stream is designated as frozen, it is treated as a dry stream regardless of depth [EXC: a flooded stream is still one level higher; 20.44].

Rule E3.722 designates the stream as frozen (freezes all streams), then the EXC in B20.7 kicks in.

My original post was simply confirming my understanding of the rules - I thought, given everything, the stream must be frozen, but, given there's a bridge, I probably over thought it...

 

[Robin Reeve]

I don't think do... I think it's just a basic exchange ( because it's not actually a MC/ELR failure )..

B20.7 FRIGID/FROZEN ... they are Replaced by the next lower Class unit or Disrupted as per A19.12-.13...

A19.13 REPLACEMENT: An unbroken Personnel unit which fails a MC by an amount > its ELR is immediately Replaced by a broken Personnel unit of lesser quality but the same size.

I see no partial application of A19.13.

As said, B20.7 is fuzzy.

 

[VonHutier]

B20.7 FRIGID/FROZEN ... they are Replaced by the next lower Class unit or Disrupted as per A19.12-.13...

A19.13 REPLACEMENT: An unbroken Personnel unit which fails a MC by an amount > its ELR is immediately Replaced by a broken Personnel unit of lesser quality but the same size.

I see no partial application of A19.13.

As said, B20.7 is fuzzy.

Wow ! OK, that's a bit more nuanced than I thought.

I played in the IR tournament last year, and I'm sorry but can't remember the scenario , but it was big on the German entry, over a stream which, if you entered it , would do the unit substitution. But as riders ......not. Must look up that episode - if you're watching Dave and Martin, give us a clue please...

 

[Doug Leslie]

Wow ! OK, that's a bit more nuanced than I thought.

I played in the IR tournament last year, and I'm sorry but can't remember the scenario , but it was big on the German entry, over a stream which, if you entered it , would do the unit substitution. But as riders ......not. Must look up that episode - if you're watching Dave and Martin, give us a clue please...

It was discussed on this thread.

Shouting Into the Storm | GameSquad Forums

 

[VonHutier]

It was discussed on this thread.

Shouting Into the Storm | GameSquad Forums

That's it, thanks Doug Leslie