Fortified building in a factory

Dualnet

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Just for clarification

Q1. If a fortification bulding hex is subsequently placed in a hex with a previously breached wall does the following (23.922) still apply to movement through the breached hexside:

Q2 If a fortification bulding hex is subsequently placed in a hex with a previously breached wall does the following (23.922) still apply to movement through all other hexsides:

To be absolutly clear the wall was breached in day 2 and the hex is fortified in day 3

23.922 ENTRY: Infantry may not enter a Fortified Building Location during any phase if an unpinned, Good Order, armed enemy squad (or its equivalent) is inside.
 

bendizoid

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Just for clarification

Q1. If a fortification bulding hex is subsequently placed in a hex with a previously breached wall does the following (23.922) still apply to movement through the breached hexside:

Q2 If a fortification bulding hex is subsequently placed in a hex with a previously breached wall does the following (23.922) still apply to movement through all other hexsides:

To be absolutly clear the wall was breached in day 2 and the hex is fortified in day 3

23.922 ENTRY: Infantry may not enter a Fortified Building Location during any phase if an unpinned, Good Order, armed enemy squad (or its equivalent) is inside.
As far as I know, fortifying does not fix a previous breach. A house rule might be appropriate because it could be a oversight.
 

BattleSchool

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Based on Chapter O, I'm thinking that a breach is permanent, regardless of any subsequent fortification of the building Location. So while fortifying a hex would improve its TEM, it wouldn't prevent entry through the breached hexside (at the level of the breach), assuming that the requirements of B23.922 are otherwise met.

CG7 TERRAIN CHANGES:
During the course of the same CG, alterations of printed mapsheet terrain are bound to occur, all of which become "permanent" (barring subsequent Clearance/Removal or Deactivation [11.6123] if applicable). All counters for Fortifications, Rubble, Breaches, Trailbreaks, Shellholes and wrecks are left on-map from scenario to scenario.
 

Dualnet

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I agree that the wall is breached permanently

Also if the fortification is breached that hex side is permanently breached also.

My problem is that what happens if you fortify a hex with a breached wall. I would suggest that the breach in the wall remains and allows you to fire and see through it but it does not automatically allow a unit to move into the fortified hex unless you breach the fortification.
 

Bryan Holtby

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I posted a perry sez earlier this week regarding VotG and fort buildings.

You cannot 'fix' a breach in a fort building by purchasing a fort building the next CG date and placing it in the same hex, regardless of who placed the original fort building.
You cannot 'fix' a breach in a normal wall by purchasing a fort building and placing it in that hex.
However, you can place a fort building in a hex that was previously breached and that will grant the +1 fort TEM bonus (and restrict entry) to all non breached hex sides.
 

Dualnet

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Hi Bryan

I did see the post your talking about but I miust admit I dont see the logic.

We are playing RB over 13 days. I completely agree that a breached wall is permenatly breached allowing units to fire and move through it etc.

What I don't understand is how the section: (23.922 ENTRY: Infantry may not enter a Fortified Building Location during any phase if an unpinned, Good Order, armed enemy squad (or its equivalent is inside.) does not apply to a newly created Fortified Hex just because a breach happened 10 campaign days ago, whereas all the other hexsides require breaching for a unit to enter, sorry doesn't make sense.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I posted a perry sez earlier this week regarding VotG and fort buildings.
Could you please post that Q&A in the "The Unofficial Perry Sez Collection" sub-folder as well?
Makes it easier for me to remember/find it later when I compile a new version of the Q&A file....
 

klasmalmstrom

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What I don't understand is how the section: (23.922 ENTRY: Infantry may not enter a Fortified Building Location during any phase if an unpinned, Good Order, armed enemy squad (or its equivalent is inside.) does not apply to a newly created Fortified Hex just because a breach happened 10 campaign days ago, whereas all the other hexsides require breaching for a unit to enter, sorry doesn't make sense.
It's an unofficial Q&A - so you could just ignore it in your RF CG Games. You will need to remember when the breach counter was placed.
 

Bryan Holtby

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Hi Bryan

I did see the post your talking about but I miust admit I dont see the logic.

We are playing RB over 13 days. I completely agree that a breached wall is permenatly breached allowing units to fire and move through it etc.

What I don't understand is how the section: (23.922 ENTRY: Infantry may not enter a Fortified Building Location during any phase if an unpinned, Good Order, armed enemy squad (or its equivalent is inside.) does not apply to a newly created Fortified Hex just because a breach happened 10 campaign days ago, whereas all the other hexsides require breaching for a unit to enter, sorry doesn't make sense.
Here we see building S34 in the spring, note the breach in the wall at the bottom of the picture. Kinda hard to patch that up overnight or even over a few days under fire with limited resources to shore up the wall other than to pile debris. This pic demonstrates a good reason for not allowing exterior factory walls to be fortified as they were more opening than wall, most of the RB factories were like this however thats a realism argument lol. I suppose one could argue that once again, Fort Building locations are an abstraction that could indicate anything from limited entry points to no entry points, to boarded up windows to solid brick walls or just debris piled up to make entrance in force very difficult.

I tend to think that a Breach is an abstraction of all the things that could happen in a 40 meter long wall when a tank drives through it, a 150mm HE shell detonates on contact or a 10lb satchel charge goes off. It could knock down a few meters, it could knock down 20m.17968
 

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Here we see building S34 in the spring, note the breach in the wall at the bottom of the picture. Kinda hard to patch that up overnight or even over a few days under fire with limited resources to shore up the wall other than to pile debris. This pic demonstrates a good reason for not allowing exterior factory walls to be fortified as they were more opening than wall, most of the RB factories were like this however thats a realism argument lol. I suppose one could argue that once again, Fort Building locations are an abstraction that could indicate anything from limited entry points to no entry points, to boarded up windows to solid brick walls or just debris piled up to make entrance in force very difficult.

I tend to think that a Breach is an abstraction of all the things that could happen in a 40 meter long wall when a tank drives through it, a 150mm HE shell detonates on contact or a 10lb satchel charge goes off. It could knock down a few meters, it could knock down 20m.View attachment 17968
Doesn't seem like anything a little Flex Seal couldn't patch up!🤣🤣😉😉

Nice photo. 🤗
 

Dualnet

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Hi Bryan

Great photo

I agree entirely that you can't fix a wall breach, as shown on the photo, but fortifying a hex is completed overnight and this sets up the rule denying entry even on an open sided hex within a factory. Seems logical to include all hexsides. I understand I'm probable on the losing side on this one.

Thanks for all your time and explanations
 
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