Forgotten Wars : 3 Guns

hongkongwargamer

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#1
I noticed 3 different CPVA HMGs available in FW and would love to hear more about them:

(I am in the subway and is just going by memory here)
  1. 6-12, B11
  2. 6-12, Russian made .. no B11!
  3. 8-16, .50 cal .. no B11 either but repairs on “2” and not “3”
Is #1 the Vickers (instead of the Browning)?
What is #2?
Is #3 Captured US 50 cals? What’s the thinking behind the “regular” malf # but slightly reduced Repair #

Many thx
 

hongkongwargamer

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#6
I would expect so. There has alwyas been a 50Cal in the Russian OB which is not US made.
I don't think the standard Russian HMG is B11, only the MMG and LMG are.
.. and that they appeared to have supplied the CPVA with the full kit !
 

klasmalmstrom

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#7
.. and that they appeared to have supplied the CPVA with the full kit !
The CPVA does come in two flavors.

W7.1:
"...CPVA MMC types are listed on the KW National Capabilities Chart, and squads/HS are grouped into two categories: Initial Intervention (7.12) and Soviet-Armed (7.13)...."
 

Paul M. Weir

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#8
There are 2 sets each of LMG/MMG/HMG as well as 1 0.50".

One set is Soviet LMG, MMG and HMG in CPVA colours, the other set are the MGs from the GMD/NRA in CPVA colours, the .50" being common to both Soviet and GMD in values.

The 2-7 LMG represents Czech ZB vz 26/30 (the Bren's predecessor), a widely exported weapon, also locally manufactured versions, as well as odds and sods like Madsens. The 2-6 LMG(r) represents the DP aka DP-28 or DPM Soviet LMG. The 4-12 MMG and 6-12 HMG represent the mix of German MG 08, British Vickers and US Browning water cooled that the GMD and various warlord armies had, while the 4-10 MMG(r) and 6-12 HMG(r) are the Soviet PM 1910 (water) and SG-43 (air) supplied.

From both text and photos the Chinese, all sides, had very few air cooled MMG/HMG until either supplied in WW2 by the US with M1919 or captured Japanese MMG/HMG. Most seem to have been versions of the classic Maxim design, the German MG08 being the commonest but you would also see Schwarzlose, Browning M1919, Vickers and even some Italian (possibly part of the shipment that brought the L3/35 tankettes) MG. If a MG ever saw production, it is likely at least a few saw service in Chinese hands.

Now that I think of it, the PLA had large number of Japanese MG, the 2-6(r) being closest match to the Japanese LMG., the non-(r) MMG/HMG to the Japanese MMG/HMG. Note that the Japanese 50mm mortar comes in CPVA and ROK/KMC colours.

The multitude of Chinese factions prior to 1949 got whatever they could whenever they could and the PLA inherited that mix. The eventually standardised on Soviet pattern stuff but that took time. So apart from the non-dm Soviet MMG/HMG 'feature', you could use whatever mix you want and you would not go too far wrong. The potential mix of weapons was really that bad.

As for 0.50" type MG, there were really only 3 moderately common designs; the US 0.50" Browning, the Soviet 12.7mm DShK and the French 13.2 Hotchkiss. The British had their own lower powered Vickers .50" round that was also used by the Italians but their guns were mainly used in aircraft (Italians), multi-gun AA mounts and in tanks (mainly British). The Brownings and DShK have seen use everywhere since WW2, but in WW2 were really only issued to US+US Lend Leased forces and Soviet forces respectively only. The Hotchkiss was used by French, Belgian and Greek forces and license built by the Japanese. Unlike the Browning and DShK and while the bare gun was about the same weight as those two, the Hotchkiss mainly saw use in weighty AA mounts and AFV, plain infantry style ground mounts seem to be rare.
 

Paul M. Weir

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#11
While I appreciate the faith you seem to have in my knowledge, my knowledge is sketchy and what you have in post 8 is about all I have.

The KPA is fairly easy, by the time of the KW, they had been totally equipped with Soviet manufactured weapons, though not as lavishly with AFV as the Red Army.

The ROK Army was more akin to pre-WW2 US Army in terms of heavy weapons, but more like late WW2 USA in terms of infantry weapons. My knowledge of the KMC is limited to a recent Journal article, shame on me. :oops:

The CPVA, well ... sigh. They had anything and everything that was left over from the Chinese Civil War period. German, Italian, Czech, US, Soviet and Japanese as well as locally manufactured rifles, MG and mortars. A very common rifle was the German Gewehr 1888, locally manufactured as the Hanyang 88. Ditto the German MG 08 was locally manufactured in Hanyang as the Type 24 and the Czech ZB-26 done in Gongxian Arsenal. Of course as the 2nd Sino-Japanese War ('37-'45) dragged on, increasing number of Japanese weapons of all types were in use and likely copied. The Japanese 50mm MTR seems to be one weapon copied, though I could not swear on that. The Chinese seemed to really like the US 60mm MTR and various RR and eventually produced their own clones as well as using captured stocks.

So apart from a few tit bits, like above, my knowledge of CVPA arms is quite sparse. I think I learnt more from watching modern Chinese films set in the '20s to '40s on the various wars than any serious study. ;) A wiki article here and a google there is about my limit.

If you want to use these posts, feel free, but I think you would do much better by using my few crumbs as a starting point to seek out more details. You are closer to such information than I, never mind the language barrier. I could give the detailed evolution of the Soviet squad pre-war to victory in detail, a bit less for the Germans but Asian armies are a fairly dark universe to me. I just about have a handle on Japanese tanks and their dreadful MG, but artillery or soft skins, fairly little or none.
 

Paul M. Weir

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#13

Kenneth P. Katz

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#15
Paul is on target. I'll just expand on my rationale when I was designing this part of the module, plus list the sources that I used.

CPVA Initial Intervention MG
The CPVA entered the war with a little bit of everything, which made their logistics a nightmare. That is why their Initial Intervention MG are B11. I assumed that the MG which were acquired in the 1930s were mostly gone by 1950, either destroyed in war or worn out beyond repair. So the most common types of LMG in service with the CPVA in 1950 would have the the weapons that were either manufactured in China during the 1940s (the ZB-26 in 7.92 x 57mm), captured from the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA) (Type 11 and Type 96 in 6.5mm and Type 99 in 7.7mm), and supplied by Lend Lease (mostly Canadian-manufactured Bren Mk II in 7.92mm). The LMG counter artwork is for the ZB-26, probably the most common weapon. Using the same logic, the most common MMG/HMG was the Type 24, which was a Chinese-manufactured Maxim design in 7.92 x 57mm. Just as with the German MMG/HMG, the MMG and the HMG are the same weapon, with more ammo for the HMG. The CPVA also used Japanese MMG/HMG in 6.5mm and 7.7mm, and assorted other weapons.

CPVA Soviet-Armed MG
The artwork on the counters represents the standard Soviet MG of the period.
LMG = DP-28 or DPM or Type 53 (Chinese-manufactured DPM)
MMG = SG-43 or SGM or Type 53 (Chinese-manufactured SG-43)
HMG = PM1910
0.50 cal HMG = DShK-38 or DShKM (Chinese-manufactured DShkM was the Type 54, so first entered service after the Korean War)

How difficult was CPVA logistics?
The CPVA was using 7.92 x 57mm (Mauser), 7.62 x 54R mm (Soviet), 6.5mm (Japanese), 7.7mm (Japanese) and smaller amounts of 30-06 (American) and .303 caliber (British) ammunition for rifles and machine guns at the same time.

Sources:
Kangzhan: Guide to Chinese Ground Forces 1937-45, Leland Ness with Bin Shih, Helion & Company, 2016
Chinese Civil War Armies 1911–49, Philip Jowett, Osprey Publishing, 1997
The Chinese People’s Liberation Army since 1949, Benjamin Lai, Osprey Publishing, 2012
The Communist Chinese Army (DA 30-51), Department of the Army, September 1952
 

Kenneth P. Katz

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#16
Not totally. Some KPA units still had Japanese weapons, which if I recall correctly are in one Forgotten War scenario. But I am quibbling. You are correct for the vast majority of the KPA.

The KPA is fairly easy, by the time of the KW, they had been totally equipped with Soviet manufactured weapons, though not as lavishly with AFV as the Red Army.
 

hongkongwargamer

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#17
Paul is on target. I'll just expand on my rationale when I was designing this part of the module, plus list the sources that I used.

CPVA Initial Intervention MG
The CPVA entered the war with a little bit of everything, which made their logistics a nightmare. That is why their Initial Intervention MG are B11. I assumed that the MG which were acquired in the 1930s were mostly gone by 1950, either destroyed in war or worn out beyond repair. So the most common types of LMG in service with the CPVA in 1950 would have the the weapons that were either manufactured in China during the 1940s (the ZB-26 in 7.92 x 57mm), captured from the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA) (Type 11 and Type 96 in 6.5mm and Type 99 in 7.7mm), and supplied by Lend Lease (mostly Canadian-manufactured Bren Mk II in 7.92mm). The LMG counter artwork is for the ZB-26, probably the most common weapon. Using the same logic, the most common MMG/HMG was the Type 24, which was a Chinese-manufactured Maxim design in 7.92 x 57mm. Just as with the German MMG/HMG, the MMG and the HMG are the same weapon, with more ammo for the HMG. The CPVA also used Japanese MMG/HMG in 6.5mm and 7.7mm, and assorted other weapons.

CPVA Soviet-Armed MG
The artwork on the counters represents the standard Soviet MG of the period.
LMG = DP-28 or DPM or Type 53 (Chinese-manufactured DPM)
MMG = SG-43 or SGM or Type 53 (Chinese-manufactured SG-43)
HMG = PM1910
0.50 cal HMG = DShK-38 or DShKM (Chinese-manufactured DShkM was the Type 54, so first entered service after the Korean War)

How difficult was CPVA logistics?
The CPVA was using 7.92 x 57mm (Mauser), 7.62 x 54R mm (Soviet), 6.5mm (Japanese), 7.7mm (Japanese) and smaller amounts of 30-06 (American) and .303 caliber (British) ammunition for rifles and machine guns at the same time.

Sources:
Kangzhan: Guide to Chinese Ground Forces 1937-45, Leland Ness with Bin Shih, Helion & Company, 2016
Chinese Civil War Armies 1911–49, Philip Jowett, Osprey Publishing, 1997
The Chinese People’s Liberation Army since 1949, Benjamin Lai, Osprey Publishing, 2012
The Communist Chinese Army (DA 30-51), Department of the Army, September 1952
Thanks Mr Katz

Mind if I add your supplement to my blog entry as well? This is getting even more interesting!
 

Paul M. Weir

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#19
Paul is on target. I'll just expand on my rationale when I was designing this part of the module, plus list the sources that I used.
<snip>
I can't figure why, but I somehow missed your design notes post and clarifications until now. So a couple of belated "likes" given. I appreciate the extra details and especially when you correct any misapprehensions that I had, like concerning some KPA units. I will only stop learning new things when I am dead :).
 

Eagle4ty

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#20
I can't figure why, but I somehow missed your design notes post and clarifications until now. So a couple of belated "likes" given. I appreciate the extra details and especially when you correct any misapprehensions that I had, like concerning some KPA units. I will only stop learning new things when I am dead :).
Just remember, you can always learn a lot, just don't let it go to your head!:nod::D