Pyth
Senior Member
The thread title is the question.
Inherent weapons do not count. SW def, Any weapon depicted on a half inch counter.Some follow-on questions: can you choose a unit possessing a Radio? Can you choose a unit possessing an inherent SW such as a MOL? An ATMM (it appears on the Support Weapons Chart)?
JR
This gets murky pretty quickly... Index: "SW (Support Weapon; any weapon depicted on a ½" counter) ok, so that's lowercase not uppecase 'weapon'... is a Radio a lowercase weapon depicted on an SW? -- Well it's not an uppercase Weapon: -- Weapon: (Any SW/Gun/Vehicular-armament/Daisy-Chain/MOL using the IFT/TK table to cause damage to the opponent)... this seems to imply, or at least allow that something can be an SW without being a Weapon. Clearly a radio isn't a Weapon... it doesn't use the IFT/TK table... but is it a weapon depicted on 1/2" counter... aka SW.... ya kinda want to say "no" it isn't except then there's this:Inherent weapons do not count. SW def, Any weapon depicted on a half inch counter.
I'm not sure a radio would count either, because the definition of weapon in the RB is, and SW/Gun-vehicular armament etc. using the IFT/TK table to cause damage to the opponent. Radios direct placement of OBA and are not involved in the IFT/TK process.
Just hold your Horses! And any other cliche you can think of! You are probably right regarding radios as SWs though. It is strange they used the word manning here though.This gets murky pretty quickly... Index: "SW (Support Weapon; any weapon depicted on a ½" counter) ok, so that's lowercase not uppecase 'weapon'... is a Radio a lowercase weapon depicted on an SW? -- Well it's not an uppercase Weapon: -- Weapon: (Any SW/Gun/Vehicular-armament/Daisy-Chain/MOL using the IFT/TK table to cause damage to the opponent)... this seems to imply, or at least allow that something can be an SW without being a Weapon. Clearly a radio isn't a Weapon... it doesn't use the IFT/TK table... but is it a weapon depicted on 1/2" counter... aka SW.... ya kinda want to say "no" it isn't except then there's this:
1.22 MAINTAINING RADIO CONTACT: To maintain Radio Contact from a preceding turn, the player must roll ≤ the Radio Contact value again in his next PFPh or DFPh (whichever comes first), but may deduct one from the DR [EXC: the Maintenance DRM is -2 if the battery is 70+mm/80+mm battalion mortar OBA.2]. The Maintenance DR is the Observer's sole allowed action for that fire phase (other than further allowed radio activities). A radio is a 1PP SW. [...]
So a radio is a SW, which makes it a weapon... it just isn't a Weapon.
I feel like maybe an erratum exc or something somewhere might help things.
ATGreat you sound confident that inherent SW aren't a subset of SW but rather their own distinct category. I think that's the accepted general interpretation too.
PS.... if you've got time for GS.... don't you have a log to get to!?
"Manning" is used is a lot of places in the rulebook -It is strange they used the word manning here though.
But without the definition it opens rules like this up to interpretation."Manning" is used is a lot of places in the rulebook -
A7.53:
"Hence a squad that elects to use its inherent FP in a different attack than that of the MG it is manning ..."
A12.12:
"If a Gun, vehicle, Cavalry, horse, or bicycle (or SW) counter loses its hidden/concealed status (regardless of range) so does its manning Infantry or PRC, and vice versa."
Pretty sure it's meant to be equivalent to "possessing".
"Inherent: Any capability included within a counter with no need to represented by another counter" [Index].Inherent weapons do not count. SW def, Any weapon depicted on a half inch counter.
Personally I don't think so, ymmv.But without the definition it opens rules like this up to interpretation.
I think you missed what I was saying to ATG about subset vs separate cstegory. If Inherent SW is a subcategory of SW then theJRV logic applies... if Inherent SW is a fully independent category from SW, the the ATG logic applies... and I think that is the interpretation most folks use... it still leaves radios in a bit limbo imo.According to the index there is no need literally to have counters. There are certain SW that are SW without ½-inch counters.
Radios are stated as being a SW per C1.22. I don't see any limbo.it still leaves radios in a bit limbo imo.
If inherent SW are not SW but an independent entity, do units lose concealment for firing a PF? They lose concealment if they fire a SW, but there is no mention in rules or q&a for losing concealment for firing an "inherent SW" separate from SW.I think you missed what I was saying to ATG about subset vs separate cstegory. If Inherent SW is a subcategory of SW then theJRV logic applies... if Inherent SW is a fully independent category from SW, the the ATG logic applies... and I think that is the interpretation most folks use
This q&a is clear that inherent SW are a subcategory of SW.C6.5
Regarding the clause “or they fire Inherent FP/SW” in C6.5 – A German MMC has a MTR and MG SW and acquisition on hex A1. Does it lose acquisition if it fires a PF? Does it lose acquisition if it fires the MG? That is, does the phrase mean all SW or just Inherent SW?
A. Yes to both. All SW.