For King and Country?

[bprobst]

Speaking of proper ethics, only people who own the original product should be talking about using VASL, and only with someone else they are directly trying to play a game with. Suggesting to someone who doesn't own the original product to use VASL to bypass the legalities of copyright is the most underhanded attempt at thievery I've openly heard spewed on these forms...

So, if you buy a new game (any game) -- or anything, really, it doesn't have to be a game -- and your buddy wants to come over and play that new game with you, but he doesn't own a copy himself, do you call him a copyright thief and refuse to see him?

If you go to a tournament (bringing all of your gear, of course), do you refuse to play anyone who can't demonstrate that they own the same gear that you do?

Playing VASL requires that somebody owns something, or you're going to be reduced to randomly pushing counters across random boards. I guess some people might find that fun.

Playing ASL requires two (or more) people who are interested in playing the game, but only one of them needs to own whatever the minimum bits are to play whatever scenario it is that you're playing. In a tournament situation you might not even need that much (although if neither player owns a copy of the rules you might find it a hard slog!). VASL can give you access to boards and counters that you might not own, but having that access doesn't mean you've stolen anything from anyone, and the boards and counters are not, by themselves, the game that is being played.

I would not, in most situations, accuse someone who purchases CH counters of being a thief. I'll happily accuse them of being an idiot, because that is self-evidently true. Nobody who isn't an idiot would pay for that stuff. If I can't play a scenario because I don't own (and can't borrow, either virtually or physically) the components I need to play that scenario, I look for a scenario that I can play. I know that it's a shockingly small pool of choices to select from, but I'm pretty sure that I'd struggle through somehow.

 

[Brad M-V]

So, if you buy a new game (any game) -- or anything, really, it doesn't have to be a game -- and your buddy wants to come over and play that new game with you, but he doesn't own a copy himself, do you call him a copyright thief and refuse to see him?

Show me where I said that.

If you go to a tournament (bringing all of your gear, of course), do you refuse to play anyone who can't demonstrate that they own the same gear that you do?

Again, show me where I said that.

Playing VASL requires that somebody owns something, or you're going to be reduced to randomly pushing counters across random boards. I guess some people might find that fun.

Only one person is required to own the game parts being used on Vassal, obviously. (but apparently not so obvious) Companies like GMT etc. post the rules of their games on-line for download, so a person can examine them and see if it's a game they want to buy. Obviously, you would be a thief if you downloaded those rules then downloaded the Vassal module for it to bypass paying for said game.

Playing ASL requires two (or more) people who are interested in playing the game, but only one of them needs to own whatever the minimum bits are to play whatever scenario it is that you're playing. In a tournament situation you might not even need that much (although if neither player owns a copy of the rules you might find it a hard slog!). VASL can give you access to boards and counters that you might not own, but having that access doesn't mean you've stolen anything from anyone, and the boards and counters are not, by themselves, the game that is being played.

You start off correct by stating, and I quote; "Playing ASL requires two (or more) people who are interested in playing the game, but only one of them needs to own whatever the minimum bits are to play whatever scenario it is that you're playing." Then you about face and claim that it's ok to use Vassal if you don't have the right parts, again I quote; "VASL can give you access to boards and counters that you might not own, but having that access doesn't mean you've stolen anything from anyone, and the boards and counters are not, by themselves, the game that is being played."

I would not, in most situations, accuse someone who purchases CH counters of being a thief. I'll happily accuse them of being an idiot, because that is self-evidently true. Nobody who isn't an idiot would pay for that stuff. If I can't play a scenario because I don't own (and can't borrow, either virtually or physically) the components I need to play that scenario, I look for a scenario that I can play. I know that it's a shockingly small pool of choices to select from, but I'm pretty sure that I'd struggle through somehow.

The whole gist of my first post was regarding this very point, and that was that many people are using Vassal to side step the need of owning a physical copy of each part used for a Vassal scenario. Only one person is required to own a physical component of the board game, but at least one does. You call someone buying counters from CH an idiot because he can't buy them from MMP just yet, and I call someone playing a Vassal scenario (solo or otherwise) with parts in said scenario not owned by at least one of those players a thief. At least the guys buying counters from CH are abiding by Vassal's expectancy of honesty.

 

[bprobst]

Show me where I said that.

You didn't say that. It's the logical extrapolation from what you did say, though. Are you saying that it's OK to steal intellectual copyright in a face-to-face situation, but not in a virtual situation? That would make no sense at all. Or are you prepared to agree that what you did say makes no sense at all, and you now wish you hadn't said it? There's only one correct answer here, incidentally.

Only one person is required to own the game parts being used on Vassal, obviously. (but apparently not so obvious) Companies like GMT etc. post the rules of their games on-line for download, so a person can examine them and see if it's a game they want to buy. Obviously, you would be a thief if you downloaded those rules then downloaded the Vassal module for it to bypass paying for said game.

Who's talking about GMT? I thought we were talking about playing ASL using VASL. What does GMT have to do with that? MMP does not publish any part of the ASL rules online (although I think you may be able to get an older version of the ASLSK1 rules, I may be remembering wrongly) so if you have any version of ASL rules that was not obtained in a legal manner than obviously that would be theft. However, VASL doesn't provide those rules, so it's not VASL that would be enabling any such theft. Nor does VASL provide scenarios. Those things certainly can be stolen but using VASL doesn't mean that they must be.

Then you about face and claim that it's ok to use Vassal if you don't have the right parts

Make up your fucking mind! Either it's OK for your friend to come over and use your game components without you owning a single one of them, or it isn't. Which is it? I don't need to own a single ASL component as long as my friend does, and that's true whether we are talking about physical maps and counters or VASL.

The whole gist of my first post was regarding this very point

You had a point? I just thought you were mumbling stupid things.

You call someone buying counters from CH an idiot because he can't buy them from MMP just yet, and I call someone playing a Vassal scenario (solo or otherwise) with parts in said scenario not owned by at least one of those players a thief.

Oh, NOW it's OK for one player and only one player to own the components. Well, it took you a while, but you got there. Now we're all agreed! Especially that bit about CH idiots.

 

[LHMG]

What with the ridiculous prices it is fetching now on ebay I wanted to ask if there are any plans for a rerelease of this module at all?

I realise that if there is it must be pretty far down the list as there is so much that we are already waiting for but I sure would like to be able to buy a copy of this in the stores again sometime

So did anyone ever come up with an answer for the original question

 

[bprobst]

So did anyone ever come up with an answer for the original question

Well, the original question has been asked and answered multiple times in various threads previously. It's a common question that many newbies seem to think no-one has ever asked before.

The short answer is, it will be reprinted when MMP get around to reprinting it. No-one who doesn't work for MMP knows when that will be. I'd bet good money that no-one who does work for MMP knows when either (at this time of writing).

The answer, incidentally, remains the same regardless of which core module you're talking about. FKaC, DB, CdG, HL, AoO ... they'll be reprinted when MMP reprints them, and no-one knows when that will be.

The best advice is to be content with the components you do own at this time. There is scope for play for many, many months with the material that is available right now. The stuff you don't own will come around again, eventually. If you just can't wait, then be prepared to pay quite a lot of money on the secondary markets.

 

[LHMG]

WOW that's the long way of saying, "I dont know."

 

[Alan Hume]

So did anyone ever come up with an answer for the original question

Nope, don't think so

well except for the post I didn't read below yours
(until after I answered your question):nod:

I wouldn't really call myself a newbie any more though as I have been playing since around 2009, guess that's a newb to most folks here though (and, yep, I do still struggle with the rules, never played OBA etc)

 

[bprobst]

WOW that's the long way of saying, "I dont know."

No, it isn't -- because that was not the sum total of what I said. Why ask a question if you're not going to pay attention to the answer?

 

[LHMG]

Youre right, there was all that snark in there besides the you dont know answer

 

[witchbottles]

Show me where I said that.



...

Only one person is required to own the game parts being used on Vassal, obviously. (but apparently not so obvious) Companies like GMT etc. post the rules of their games on-line for download, so a person can examine them and see if it's a game they want to buy. Obviously, you would be a thief if you downloaded those rules then downloaded the Vassal module for it to bypass paying for said game.

...

A point of order here - like MMP's ASLRB, scenarios, and Chapter H notes and some charts/dividers - GMT's living Rules on their website do not allow players to simply download them and play the game via the appropriate VASSAL module. The key charts are withheld to prevent copyright infringement in this way.

 

[bprobst]

Are you saying you didn't understand my answer? Because that's what your responses are indicating. Which part didn't you understand? The part about "no-one knows"? Or the part about "no-one knows"?

 

[LHMG]

I dont know. Why dont you keep telling us how much you dont know. I dont know.

 

[witchbottles]

I dont know. Why dont you keep telling us how much you dont know. I dont know.

Who knows?

 

[Jeffrey D Myers]

Who knows?

I don't know.... (But then, that is not unusual.)

 

[LHMG]

How much difference in the counter mix between West of Alamein and FKaC. I imagine there are no Fireflies or other late war vehicles but are all the infantry types and other equipment there.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

How much difference in the counter mix between West of Alamein and FKaC. I imagine there are no Fireflies or other late war vehicles but are all the infantry types and other equipment there.

IIRC, the British OB is pretty much the same. It should only be the desert-specific counters from WoA that aren't in FKaC.

 

[witchbottles]

IIRC, the British OB is pretty much the same. It should only be the desert-specific counters from WoA that aren't in FKaC.

I think there was an artic;e ion J7 or thereabouts concerning the changes - and a discourse about the British 3 " mortar.

KRL, Jon H

 

[Jazz]

How much difference in the counter mix between West of Alamein and FKaC. I imagine there are no Fireflies or other late war vehicles but are all the infantry types and other equipment there.

I believe the complete British OOB including late war AFV models is included in both WOA and FKaC. Have to get Korea for Centurions.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

As others have said, the only real difference was the DTO related counter set, eg Dust. One thing FkaC was missing were the fascine counters for the Churchill ARVE, but they were put in Yanks 2.

 

[Kaiax33]

What are the key differences between FKaC 1st Edition and 2nd Edition? Is it just more mapsheets (unmounted) while the 1st Ed had 4 mounted sheets?