Flooded Streams

[Nineteen Kilo]

I'm playing Lone Canuck's Crossing the Moro this weekend and I'm anticipating the worst which is bogging a Sherman in the river.

The scenario has a River defined as "flooded". There is a Ford treated as a "Deep Stream".

Question: If one of my Sherman's bogs in the Ford/Deep Stream, what level is it at for LOS purposes?

Intuitively I want to say Level -1 because that would be the 'river bottom' if no water. But Flooded makes the water obstacle one level higher, which is Level 0. However the Sherman would be resting on the bottom not floating on the river, so Level 0 doesn't make sense to me.

Your thoughts?

 

[Nineteen Kilo]

Maybe I'm over thinking this. Maybe I should ignore that the Ford is "treated as a Deep Stream" which would require a Bog check per B20.46, and just use the Ford rules of B20.82 which would not require a Bog check. So the Sherman can't even Bog in the River...

So if the River were Flooded the Sherman would be at Level 0 while in the Ford.

Do I have this right?

 

[jrv]

Perhaps it would be best if you quoted the SSR in full as fords in a B20.8 sense apply to streams, not rivers. Fording in rivers [B21.41] can be done only by infantry/cavalry. If the SSR defines certain hexes as being deep stream (without using the "f" word), common sense would require that the deep stream level be the same as the river level, but the rules would indicate otherwise. Having only read your description above I am going to guess that the SSR is somewhat muddled, and that you and your opponent are going to have to do the best you can with it. But the SSR may be clearer on the matter than I anticipate.

JR

 

[aneil1234]

Subject to the more info the JR requested above
I have never seen nor played it that a ford changed the DEPTH of the level of the Stream (as JR says its for streams not rivers).
It has just changed the DEPTH of the water IN THE Stream

So IF normal the stream is (Usually a -1 depression) Its just the water in the bottom is only deep not flooded (In this particular case). and the MP/MF is expended as if this was the case.
The added bonus is a vehicle doesn't have to roll for Bog check on the way OUT (only time AFIK - assuming normal rules that is - you have to roll on the way out of terrain)

 

[Nineteen Kilo]

Perhaps it would be best if you quoted the SSR in full as fords in a B20.8 sense apply to streams, not rivers. Fording in rivers [B21.41] can be done only by infantry/cavalry. If the SSR defines certain hexes as being deep stream (without using the "f" word), common sense would require that the deep stream level be the same as the river level, but the rules would indicate otherwise. Having only read your description above I am going to guess that the SSR is somewhat muddled, and that you and your opponent are going to have to do the best you can with it. But the SSR may be clearer on the matter than I anticipate.
JR

"Muddled" yes it appears to me the scenario designer has mashed two separate areas of the rules together without fully thinking out the implications.

Here is the exact wording:

"The River is Flooded with a Ford (B20.8) in hexes 40Q2-Q3. For this SSR the River is treated as Deep Stream (B20.43) in the two Ford hexes only."


My first take was that I was going to ignore the Ford rules and implement the Deep Stream rules in the two hexes at issue. Now I really don't know what to think.

 

[jrv]

I think I would treat the "ford" hexes as level zero (as common sense tells you the water can't be lower than the rest of the river). Because B20.46 says that bog applies only if moving to a higher elevation, no bog would be applicable both while moving in the river and while exiting (unless the exit hex is at > level zero). Ignoring bog may not be the intention, but since bog is a relatively low probability event, ignoring it probably will not affect play.

JR

 

[Nineteen Kilo]

I think I would treat the "ford" hexes as level zero (as common sense tells you the water can't be lower than the rest of the river). Because B20.46 says that bog applies only if moving to a higher elevation, no bog would be applicable both while moving in the river and while exiting (unless the exit hex is at > level zero). Ignoring bog may not be the intention, but since bog is a relatively low probability event, ignoring it probably will not affect play.

JR

JR your solution makes sense to me. Thanks for your input.

 

[jrv]

If you are feeling ambitious, you might submit the issue to George for a clarification. He has responded here before.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think I would treat the "ford" hexes as level zero (as common sense tells you the water can't be lower than the rest of the river). Because B20.46 says that bog applies only if moving to a higher elevation, no bog would be applicable both while moving in the river and while exiting (unless the exit hex is at > level zero).

But moving from a Ford (B20.8) doesn't require a Bog check, even if gaining elevation.

B20.82:
"Movement from a ford hex does not require a Bog DR even if the move is across a higher level hexside, but does required the normal additional MF/MP costs if moving to a higher elevation."
So a Bog check would not be required regardless of which elevation those two hexes are at.

Although given the wording of the SSR it seems like the only thing that is changed is that those two hexes are treated as Deep Stream hexes, even though a rules reference to Fords is there as well. if both rules apply, then those hexes would actually be Shallow Stream hexes for movement purposes.

 

[von Marwitz]

Question: If one of my Sherman's bogs in the Ford/Deep Stream, what level is it at for LOS purposes?

"Take her up to periscope depth, cox'n!"

A unit IN a Stream is usually at level -1 (i.e. IN a Depression) and a Ford is an area in a Stream. See B20.2, B20.8, A6.3.

My reasoning for level -1:
No matter if the Steam is Dry, Shallow, or Deep - that tank ain't swimming if I got you right. So with regard to its level, it should be at the same level regardless if it is Dry or Flooded.

I know this might create questions with regard to LOS if the rest of the Flooded Stream is considered Level 0. Does Water block LOS?

Still, I'd believe level -1 would be best. And LOS considered not blocked by water if traced through it. Consider it some sort of ASL physics.

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

A flooded stream is at level zero, not level -1.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

A flooded stream is at level zero, not level -1.

JR

I do not contest that in principle.

The water level makes a Flooded Stream level 0 and not level -1. But the - so to say - bottom of the stream (not the water level above it) is at level -1 regardless of the the height of water above it. And as tanks don't float, I would put it at level -1.

As a consequence, I would argue that LOS should not be hindered/blocked if traced through water at level 0. Which is a bit of 'ASL physics'.

If you argue for level 0, this would somehow illogically raise the level of the Ford dependent on the water level. You can of course say that this is also a piece of 'ASL physics'.

I find my piece of 'ASL physics' preferrable, because its strange effects on LOS are much likely to be more limited when compared to normal as your alternative.

Probably, we won't be able to find a definitive solution based on the rules as is.

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

Would a boat or raft in the same hex be at level zero or at level minus one? If at level zero, there would be two locations in such a hex? Would a vehicle in such a hex have LOS past other (flooded, hence level 0) hexes? Would a vehicle in such a hex have LOS to hexes at level zero other than at the stream edge? Would boats/rafts in such a hex have LOS to hexes at level zero other than at the stream edge?

JR

 

[STAVKA]

As the stream rules are written a unit in a Ford hex will always be a level -1.

 

[von Marwitz]

Would a boat or raft in the same hex be at level zero or at level minus one? If at level zero, there would be two locations in such a hex? Would a vehicle in such a hex have LOS past other (flooded, hence level 0) hexes? Would a vehicle in such a hex have LOS to hexes at level zero other than at the stream edge? Would boats/rafts in such a hex have LOS to hexes at level zero other than at the stream edge?

JR

Good points I have not thought of.
Maybe Level 0 is better after all.

Probably, this issue is best addressed by the clarification of an SSR. It should come up extremely rarely.

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

As the stream rules are written a unit in a Ford hex will always be a level -1.

As the stream rules are written a ford in a flooded stream probably should have some more SSRs explaining how that works. As far as I know there are no official scenarios that have tried to put a ford in a flooded stream. If a scenario designer tries to do it, I say he is in a bad place in the rules, and it would be better to add more SSR rather than rely on the rules as written.

JR

 

[STAVKA]

Rule 20.81 about Fords reads: "deep stream rather than flooded stream" and the rule for deep stream is like for any other type of non-flooded stream at level -1.

That must be the answer to the question of this thread.

As the stream rules are written a ford in a flooded stream probably should have some more SSRs explaining how that works. As far as I know there are no official scenarios that have tried to put a ford in a flooded stream. If a scenario designer tries to do it, I say he is in a bad place in the rules, and it would be better to add more SSR rather than rely on the rules as written.

JR

 

[Nineteen Kilo]

We played it as -1 with a bog check when exiting the River, but no bog check for entering the two Ford hexes. I can't justify it in any way other than we had to agree on something in order to play.

The scenario has a far bigger issue than Flooded River/Ford/Deep Stream, and that is the play balance. Although ROAR reflects someone won as the Canadians, I sure would like to know how they did it, because the situation looked impossible from their viewpoint - the Canadian team threw in the towel on turn 4, but knew it was lost on Turn 3.

19K

 

[GeorgeBates]

"Take her up to periscope depth, cox'n!"

To keep things ship-shape and Bristol Fashion (though I speak only of the United States, not the Royal Navy), the Captain or the Officer of the Deck would order the boatswain's mate of the watch to make this maneuver, who would then direct the ratings manning the rudder and dive plane controls to execute the order. A coxswain mans (or womans) the rudder of a boat (not "boat" as used to refer to a submarine) or landing craft, whether propelled by oars, sails or motor.

Standing by for correction for those who have spent more time in boats than I ever have.

 

[von Marwitz]

To keep things ship-shape and Bristol Fashion (though I speak only of the United States, not the Royal Navy), the Captain or the Officer of the Deck would order the boatswain's mate of the watch to make this maneuver, who would then direct the ratings manning the rudder and dive planes to execute the order. A coxswain mans (or womans) the rudder of a boat (not "boat" as used to refer to a submarine) or landing craft, whether propelled by oars, sails or motor.

Standing by for correction for those who have spent more time in boats than I ever have.

You may well be right. I am but an infernal land lubber.

von Marwitz