Flamethrowers and HIP AFV

commissar1969

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A hex contains an HIP, BU AFV and an unconcealed Squad and SMC.

An FT Tank moves ADJACENT to the Location and fires the FT resulting in a 1KIA.

The Defender rolls Random Selection and the SMC dies. The Squad is automatically Broken.

Does the HIP, BU AFV have to reveal itself for any reason?
 

EagleIV

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Possibly if the attack is through an unarmored facing per D5.311 and the DR is low enough.
 

commissar1969

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So as long as there is no unarmored target facing, the HIP AFV would not be revealed, correct?
 

Stewart

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I assume the AFV is in Concealment terrain.

Vehicle must be designated as the target.
 

EagleIV

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Guns can be hip in non concealment terrain.
Yes but they would lose HIP (but not concealment.

As to the OP the only other time I can think of (other than an unarmored facing) when the AFV might have to be revealed is when there are Passengers or Riders who are effected.

For the FT to effect the AFV it would have to be designated as the target which can't be done if it is HIP.
 

klasmalmstrom

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For the FT to effect the AFV it would have to be designated as the target which can't be done if it is HIP.
Considering one can shoot at a hidden vehicle with a Gun, I am not sure why one could not do it with a FT. Or is there a rule prohibiting a FT vs a Concealed/hidden AFV?
 

Doug Leslie

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Considering one can shoot at a hidden vehicle with a Gun, I am not sure why one could not do it with a FT. Or is there a rule prohibiting a FT vs a Concealed/hidden AFV?
The AFV must be pre-designated as a target which is impossible if it is hidden.

A22.34 vs AFV: A FT attack against an AFV is resolved on the C7.34 HE & Flame To Kill Table, but only if the AFV is predesignated as the main target. If the AFV is not destroyed, its Vulnerable PRC are still subject to a Specific Collateral attack (D.8). AF do not affect a FT attack, but the FT's Basic TK# is halved at Long Range. The FT's Basic TK# is increased by one if the target AFV is CE, and by two if OT (or by three if both CE and OT).
 
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klasmalmstrom

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The AFV must be pre-designated as a target which is impossible if it is hidden.
I am not sure you can't "chance" there is a vehicle in the hex....same thing with a 5/8" stack - could be a concealed vehicle, could be a dummy....


EDIT - found an old Q&A:


A22.34 1) A FT is fired vs a location containing enemy infantry. This location also happens to include a HIP closed top AFV. Is it revealed?
A. Not unless CE and the Collateral Attack against the PRC gives a PTC or better.

2) With or without concealment?
A. Without, if the CE PRC are affected.

3) Would the answer be different if it was CE or open topped?
A. See above.

4) Can a FT firing at a location state that it's targeting a possible HIP vehicle, so to be able to affect and kill it?
A. Yes.
 

EagleIV

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I hadn't considered the idea of shooting at empty hexes and targetting HIP vehicles.
 

bendizoid

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Doesn’t really make sense. How can you specifically target something you can’t see?
 

Doug Leslie

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It's probably nothing one does very often....can't say I've ever heard of anyone actually doing it....
If I am going to risk breaking down a FT, I am going to make sure that I am shooting at a visible target! Hard to imagine any situation where I would fire at an "empty" location in the hope of finding an AFV there.
 

von Marwitz

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It's probably nothing one does very often....can't say I've ever heard of anyone actually doing it....
Doesn’t really make sense. How can you specifically target something you can’t see?
I have done this in a scenario, the name of which I can't remember.

The defending Germans which I had to attack had one Panther which was HIP by SSR. Due to mostly city terrain and streets that the beast likely wanted to cover, there were not too many places that seemed suitable to HIP it. But as long as I did not know, where the thing was, I was inhibited with my other movement which would cost me time I did not have.

So I had a hunch that the Panther would lurk in a particular hex. I pulled up with one of my tanks and stopped at the other end of the street, but nothing happened (maybe the Panther wasn't where I had expected it or he would not take the bait or he wanted to wait for his next PFPh for better TH DRM, whatever). In the next German turn, still nothing happened to my tank. But I had that hunch...

Thus I announced VTT on a "suspected HIP vehicle" - to hell with Acquisition - in the hex in question. I was lucky to roll low and to hit the Panther in the turret wrecking it. Sweet.


I can imagine a situations, where a well founded "hunch" might lead you to rake a certain area with an ammo type which is able to harm a "suspected" target.

von Marwitz
 
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klasmalmstrom

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If I am going to risk breaking down a FT, I am going to make sure that I am shooting at a visible target! Hard to imagine any situation where I would fire at an "empty" location in the hope of finding an AFV there.
Agree - it's unlikely to occur....
 

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"Kirk to Engineering. Scotty, how's that anti-cloaking device machine coming along?"
 

Eagle4ty

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I have done this in a scenario, the name of which I can't remember.

The defending Germans which I had to attack had one Panther which was HIP by SSR. Due to mostly city terrain and streets that the beast likely wanted to cover, there were not too many places that seemed suitable to HIP it. But as long as I did not know, where the thing was, I was inhibited with my other movement which would cost me time I did not have.

So I had a hunch that the Panther would lurk in a particular hex. I pulled up with one of my tanks and stopped at the other end of the street, but nothing happened (maybe the Panther wasn't where I had expected it or he would not take the bait or he wanted to wait for his next PFPh for better TH DRM, whatever). In the next German turn, still nothing happened to my tank. But I had that hunch...

Thus I announced VTT on a "suspected HIP vehicle" - to hell with Acquisition - in the hex in question. I was lucky to roll low and to hit the Panther in the turret wrecking it. Sweet.


I can imagine a situations, where a well founded "hunch" might lead you to rake a certain area with an ammo type which is able to harm a "suspected" target.

von Marwitz
Sounds Like "Deadeye Smoyer" the representation of the engagement in Cologne.
 

bendizoid

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I have done this in a scenario, the name of which I can't remember.

The defending Germans which I had to attack had one Panther which was HIP by SSR. Due to mostly city terrain and streets that the beast likely wanted to cover, there were not too many places that seemed suitable to HIP it. But as long as I did not know, where the thing was, I was inhibited with my other movement which would cost me time I did not have.

So I had a hunch that the Panther would lurk in a particular hex. I pulled up with one of my tanks and stopped at the other end of the street, but nothing happened (maybe the Panther wasn't where I had expected it or he would not take the bait or he wanted to wait for his next PFPh for better TH DRM, whatever). In the next German turn, still nothing happened to my tank. But I had that hunch...

Thus I announced VTT on a "suspected HIP vehicle" - to hell with Acquisition - in the hex in question. I was lucky to roll low and to hit the Panther in the turret wrecking it. Sweet.


I can imagine a situations, where a well founded "hunch" might lead you to rake a certain area with an ammo type which is able to harm a "suspected" target.

von Marwitz
Next thing you’ll tell me the TK # is a 8. Gimme a break.


I have a HIP AFV story, Under the Noel Trees. I drove on my Germans and wanted to put an Aqui in this woods hex the US infantry might enter. Yes guessed it, Area target type snake eyes followed by a one dr for improbable hit and a critical HE snake eye TK roll to destroy his HIP tank destroyer on fire outta the great blue yonder! My opponent’s jaw dropped in amazement and he threw in the towel, game over with only one attack roll.

Next time I played Under the Noel Trees and made three attacks, the first attack was to spin a turrent and I rolled the US sniper and he ‘1’ Stun/recalled my favorite MK4. My next shot was a on the move improbable hit with this +1 recall MkIV (leaving the map) long range against his small HD tank destroyer. Snake eyes with a 1dr for improbable, burn it. The next shot was from a immobilized Stg3 against his last TD, you guessed it : bounding fire snakes eyes. Opponent surrenders. That’s two games of Under the Noel Trees for a total of Three TH DRs of which all were snakeeyes and a extra snakes eyes on a TK DR.
 
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