Fixed Covered Arc for gun firing out of woods/building/rubble

sfcmikej

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Hey All,

I know that a gun's CA is fixed in this situation for that fire phase. If the gun shoots defensive fire, and retains ROF, in the MPh can it change CA in the Defensive Fire Phase or is that considered all one phase?

Thanks

Mike
 

Robin Reeve

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Firing during the enemy MPh and during the DFPh is firing during two different phases, as implies A.15.
A.15 FIRST/FINAL FIRE: Even though Defensive First Fire occurs during the MPh and Defensive Final Fire usually occurs during the DFPh, qualifying units may fire in both without violating the general rule that no unit can fire in more than one phase per Player Turn (7.1).
A9.21 specifies that the CA restriction applies during a given phase.
So if it was enforced during DFF, it won't carry on during the DFPh - unless the operator was pinned during the MPh.
A9.21 ... However, if a SW MMG/HMG in a woods/rubble/building hex fires and is entitled to another shot, it may continue to fire during that phase only inside the CA of the prior shot (which, unlike the CA of a Gun [C3.2], includes the MG's own Location regardless of the hexside [if any] crossed by the target unit entering that Location) ... Remove the CA counter at the end of the current phase [EXC: a SW MMG/HMG with a fixed CA, and whose operator was pinned in the PFPh/MPh, retains that fixed CA until the end of the DFPh].
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sfcmikej

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Thanks Klas and Robin. That is what I thought. The A.15 reference is what I was vaguely remembering and couldn't find. I couldn't remember the wording and whether it classified the First/Final as one phase or if, as it appears, exempted the limitation of shooting in two phases. The references much appreciated.

Mike
 

Philippe D.

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Note that there are a number of rules that consider MPh and DFPh to be one fire phase, so the "once per fire phase" restrictions don't always mean the same thing. It's one of those things that you have to "remember" (or check in the Big Red Book) on a case by case basis.

(Me, I got bitten in the a** once by this one, so now I remember it. Sacrificed one infantry unit to get close to the gun and fix its CA, then moved another one out of the CA - only to get hit by Final Fire.)
 

jrv

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(Me, I got bitten in the a** once by this one, so now I remember it. Sacrificed one infantry unit to get close to the gun and fix its CA, then moved another one out of the CA - only to get hit by Final Fire.)
The case A DRM is doubled when firing out of woods/building/rubble, and ROF is one less for NT guns. Given that, sacrificing one unit to move another unit adjacent is not an insane risk against most guns. Perhaps the major exception would be moving in against an eighty-eight FlaK gun. There you are still running a fairly large risk if it keeps ROF when it locks itself.

JR
 

Vinnie

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Heck, thsts what half squads are for! Never be in a squad tgat I deploy....youll regret it.
 

Philippe D.

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The case A DRM is doubled when firing out of woods/building/rubble, and ROF is one less for NT guns. Given that, sacrificing one unit to move another unit adjacent is not an insane risk against most guns. Perhaps the major exception would be moving in against an eighty-eight FlaK gun. There you are still running a fairly large risk if it keeps ROF when it locks itself.

JR
The case I had in mind was not an 88 AA, but it did retain ROF. It did not in DFPh (even though ROF was not lowered because it was not NT - another thing that's easy to forget since NT guns are the vast majority), but then nailed me with an Intensive Fire shot.

The whole sequence was not obviously a bad move, but I still miscalculated because I had not realized that another CA change in DFPh was even possible - in my mind, it was locked for good.
 

jrv

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The case I had in mind was not an 88 AA, but it did retain ROF. It did not in DFPh (even though ROF was not lowered because it was not NT - another thing that's easy to forget since NT guns are the vast majority), but then nailed me with an Intensive Fire shot.

The whole sequence was not obviously a bad move, but I still miscalculated because I had not realized that another CA change in DFPh was even possible - in my mind, it was locked for good.
I am not sure I understand the situation entirely. During the MPh the gun fired & retained ROF but CA was fixed. During the DFPh gun turned its CA & fired. The gun did not hit on the CA change, and it did not retain ROF after the CA change? In that case it may not fire *again*. Units/weapons which *are not* marked with First Fire at the start of the DFPh may fire until they run out of ROF but may not area/intensive/sustained fire even against adjacent targets because they are marked with a Final Fire marker (not a first fire marker) when they run out of any ROF [A3.4]. Units/weapons which *are* marked with First Fire at the start of the DFPh may fire once more as Area/intensive/sustained fire against adjacent targets. Unlike during the MPh, a unit/weapon can't both fire normally and also fire as if marked by a first fire counter (i.e. intensive/sustained) during the DFPh. A8.4 doesn't call this out really clearly, but both A3.4 and the ASOP say that a Final Fire marker is placed after fire during the DFPh, not a First Fire marker.

JR
 

Philippe D.

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Well, it's quite possible that we played this wrong, or even that I remember it wrong. I'm pretty sure that's one occasion where I thought a fixed CA during First Fire carried on into Final Fire, and learned better - the rest is based on flaky memory.
 

jrv

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Well, it's quite possible that we played this wrong
I only came to understand the subtlety of firing in the DFPh in the past few years. Time was when I would first fire in the DFPh, lose ROF (or not have it), then intensive fire. This doesn't come up very often, but when it has my opponents have been unaware (and unhappy) to learn it too.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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I only came to understand the subtlety of firing in the DFPh in the past few years. Time was when I would first fire in the DFPh, lose ROF (or not have it), then intensive fire. This doesn't come up very often, but when it has my opponents have been unaware (and unhappy) to learn it too.

JR
Certainly not helped by the fact that VASL has a DFPh Intensive Fire counter that may lead to some bad habits or incorrect interpretations of the ASLRB. In actuality the more correct counter to put on a gun that fires after it has already been marked with a First Fire counter is the Final Fire counter even though that shot may have many of the same implications as having been intensive fired. The only other capability of a non-vehicular gun marked with a Final Fire counter to fire again is OVR-Prevention for most (but certainly not all) such guns (C5.64). As indicated by the original counters, Intensive Fire really falls into the realm of Prep-Bounding-Advancing Fire options.
 
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