von Marwitz
Forum Guru
That is indeed what I was thinking of. Thanks Klas.
von Marwitz
von Marwitz
First Impressions of J12
- Thread starter Gunner Scott
- Start date
So, what, in order to burn the rest of the MP, you declare something like you're going to crash into a building or the woods in the hex you're entering and if you don't have enough MP your turn is over in motion?
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
Yep. That's basically it.
Say you have a tank with 13MP and you entered the VBM-hex where you wanted to end your MPh announcing "10". Too bad, there is 3 left you must spend. So you must either leave or stop, which would better the chances of the defenders to take you out.
But luck has it that there is another woods hex towards your tank is pointed at in VBM. You announce: "I'll try to enter the woods." Of course, it is obvious that your MP's are insufficient. But - surprise - you 'discover' this and remain in Motion in the VBM hex. This could be even more handy if you want to enter the VBM hex and use a sD, of which you do not know if you roll good enough for it. In case you roll sufficiently well, you get the Smoke, but if not... One MP left to stop (unless you could leave into OG). Again, terrain permitting, you announce your 'attempt' to move on, 'discover' that you do not have sufficient MP and stay in Motion in your VBM-hex just as you wanted to end up.
von Marwitz
Michael Dorosh
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Just so I'm clear on it as this is discussed a lot, another option - which you would have to do in advance - would be to announce "13" instead of "10", i.e. you can choose to spend more than the actual MP cost to enter a hex (is this right?), and thereby stay in Motion?
Wouldn't spending Delay MP in the previous hex work?
klasmalmstrom
Forum Guru
Correct.
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
This is how you would 'normally' do it.
Which means that you might need to pre-calculate your move before you actually begin shoving your tank around to avoid ending up with 'excess' MP where you end your move or spending them in places where you should rather avoid it:
Say, our 13MP tank has spent 9MP when you want to move him into VBM to end the MPh in Motion which would require 2MP. You could at that point announce: "13 VBM, Motion."
Oftentimes, the last few MP's of a tank's MPh are the most dangerous ones as it might move into position to engage the enemy or into terrain which might be covered by a lurking HIP ATG. In that case, it may be cleverer to use 'excess' MP's before you move onto the dangerous ground or into potential LOS of the enemy (which could burden him with an additional C1 or C2 To Hit DRM increasing your chances of being missed or potentially decreasing the times you can be fired at). So depending on your plans, you might want to arrive with 11MP already spent before you move into the VBM hex.
The drawback of this latter method can be, however, that your opponent can better predict where you might want to or can end your MPh.
So, as a bottomline, there is no 'best' recipe but how you spend MP's is always dependent on the individual situation where many factors can play a part.
von Marwitz
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von Marwitz
Forum Guru
It would. But you would have to either announce the 'extra' MP's upon entry into the previous hex, or stop, spend delay MP's, restart and continue on. And, as mentioned in my previous post, there might be better places to spend delay excess MP's than very close to danger.
von Marwitz
I don't think you'd want to stop and spend delay adjacent unless there was no way they could Street Fight you or didn't have any AT capabilities.
I understand the deliberate nature of Delay in whatever hex you chose to Delay. While my last post said the previous hex, the idea was to spend delay in a suitable safe spot leaving just enough MP to get into Bypass in the target hex. While counting MP can be a pain and fraught with errors, most should be able to count a few hexes ahead in their head and pick a 'sweet' spot to delay in, say 2 or 3 hexes away.
Michael Dorosh
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My biggest objection to it would be how it is not in the spirit of the rulebook. If there are rules clearly stating you can't take a move back, are prohibited from checking LOS before declaring an attack, must declare DF before a moving unit leaves a hex, etc. etc. - why would a player reasonably be expected to be allowed to pre-count his movement out before commencing his move?
I don't find it a pain to do simple addition - what is a pain for me is waiting for someone meticulously plotting out alternative movement paths before they lift a counter.
FrankJ
Cap'n Crud
What if you have two movement options into the next hex, such as either enter the woods, or bypass the woods. Declaring to enter the woods would keep you in motion in the current hex, but if you had to take the bypass option, than you might have to move into the new hex. Is the rule clear about the moving players choice?
I'm not suggesting 'take backs' or 'count out loud's, simply if I am, say, 3 hexes from some destination I can look at a board and see that to get to my destination it would take X MP which means I have Y left over which is the amount I need to Delay in the next hex. If my mental estimation is wrong then it's tough titties on me. To me it's a bit like eye-balling a map for a LOS and then declaring a Fire and only then doing a proper LOS check. You can't legislate for someone working out in their head simple things like the cost of a short run, like for example it would take 3 MF to cross a street and enter a building.
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
Good spot. That is a good question.
"D2.4 MOTION STATUS: ... A vehicle may end its MPh in Motion without expending all of its MP only if it has insufficient MP remaining to enter the next hex it wishes to enter. ..."
As the rule is written, it talks about entering the next hex. If using VBM, you are within a specific hex, and it usually costs only 2MP you bypass in an OG-portion of a Woods/Building hex (and the 1MP necessary to turn on the CAFP is spent in the current hex and not the one about to be entered as I understand it).
So upon closer examination it appears, that this would limit the trick significantly (i.e. in case of OG in an ADJACENT hex usable for VBM to 2 'excess' MP's to burn: In our previous example, our tank has spent 11MP to get into VBM, but would need 3MP more to get into VBM of an ADJACENT hex - 1 to turn the CAFP, 2MP to enter into VBM for 14MP which would be 1MP in excess of its 13MP available. If the tank had spent only 10MP to get into the first VBM, then it could possibly try its luck to burn another 1MP by successfully using a sD/sP/sM before.
Still, suitable terrain provided, it would allow you to plan ahead avoiding to be obliged having to stop on your 13th MP if you unsuccessfully tried a sD/sP/sM in the hex you want to end your MPh in Motion.
Edit - Afterthoughts:
- What would happen if I claimed wanting to enter the hex behind me via Reverse Movement?
- Could I theoretically switch back and forth my CAFP in analogy to switching back my VCA when wanting to burn MP's in a given hex without stopping?
klasmalmstrom
Forum Guru
What do you mean by "switch back and forth my CAFP" ? - the CAFP is the vertex where LOS is drawn to - it doesn't change unless you move.
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
Well, if VBM'ing, I need to spend 1MP to turn the CA (on the CAFP, so indeed my wording was imprecise), before I can proceed to continue VBM'ing in an ADJACENT hex.
Question is: Would it be possible to switch back/forth the VCA on a CAFP to burn MP's to avoid stopping and to take advantage of later being able to claim not to have sufficient MP's left to enter the next hex?
von Marwitz
jrv
Forum Guru
When a vehicle is in bypass, it can only change VCA as part of a move to a new hexside [D2.33].
JR
Eagle4ty
Forum Guru
That is one of the most asked questions (or at least the 1st asked question) in regards to the matter. It really has not been definitively answered as most players like to "sleaze" and say they're entering the building/woods & thus would not have enough MP available to accomplish this, though when they move on in a different turn this option is immediately forgotten as part of their next move. To this train of thought I would add, what if I announced when having only 3 available MP remaining I wished to enter an Open Ground hex at an additional cost, say 4MP? Thus in that instance, I certainly would not have enough MP (without ESB) to accomplish the move and could then stay in Bypass, this I'm fairly certain would not fly or at least sit well with most players but is actually an option available to the bypassing unit. It would be my assertion that if a move could be made at all with the available remaining MP (e.g. to another bypass situation let's say), the move must be made thus negating the moving player's option to declare that it wished to enter the next hex's building/woods unless it retained sufficient MP to do so.
I've obviously misunderstood something with all this talk of MP gymnastics in order to remain in VBM in motion. Aren't you allowed to enter VBM (or any location) by expending any amount of MPs you declare upon entering the VBM location? For example, you have 4 MPs remaining and declare that you'll spend 4 to enter an open ground VBM location.
jrv
Forum Guru
Yes, as long as you are entering a new hex. But the moving player would like to have his cake and eat it too. If he can enter with a bunch of points left over then later decide that being in bypass isn't where he would like to be after all, it is good to be able to use those points to do something else. For instance if the vehicle enters into bypass and the DEFENDER in the hex FPF Reaction Fires and breaks, there's really no point in the vehicle staying around. Its work in the hex is done. But if the DEFENDER keeps his cool and does not attack, the vehicle needs to stay in place. For that reason the moving player wants to keep as many MP as he can but also be in a position where he can remain in bypass if necessary.
JR
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