First Fire/Final Fire

[Dave McLee]

A crewed 75L AT gun fires at a moving vehicle 2 hexes away (the shot hits, but ROF is lost). The TK roll immobilizes the vehicle.

According to A8.1, since the weapon has lost ROF, a 1st fire is placed on the crew and gun.

An enemy infantry unit (squand with a FT) then runs up adjacent to the crewed gun that just fired.

Can the crew subsequent first fire (A8.3) at that infantry unit????

My opponent claims so, but I have reservations about this since it is a crew that is firing (not the gun).

 

[Gunner Scott]

Hi-

Sure the crew can final fire as infantry, they just cant final fire thier gun unless being overrun.

Think of it this way, a Jap crew fires it's HMG, no RoF, another unit moves next to them, the crew can now final fire at them not using the HMG. [EXC unless being subjected to HW/ Cavalry wave then they gotta fire the HMG]



Scott

 

[Ole Boe]

Scott is correct.

The relevant rules that allow this are:

A7.351: "A crew/HS/SMC that fires any SW/Gun loses its inherent FP ... [EXC: 7.353]."

A7.353: "In both of the above cases, Subsequent First Fire (8.3) ... retain halved inherent FP for those attacks (regardless of how they were used during First Fire)"


BTW, welcome to the forum :toast: - but note that rule questions should be asked in the rules sub-section (a moderator will probably move it).

 

[Robin Reeve]

rule questions should be asked in the rules sub-section (a moderator will probably move it).

Done! :laugh:
And, yes : Welcome !

 

[Georgii2222]

Hi-

Sure the crew can final fire as infantry, they just cant final fire thier gun unless being overrun.

Think of it this way, a Jap crew fires it's HMG, no RoF, another unit moves next to them, the crew can now final fire at them not using the HMG. [EXC unless being subjected to HW/ Cavalry wave then they gotta fire the HMG]



Scott

Why wouldn't the gun be able to Intensive Fire?

 

[Gunner Scott]

Why wouldn't the gun be able to Intensive Fire?

Because the Gun, like any ordinance can only fire if the crew is not marked with a first fire/ final fire counter and of course barring overruns and what not IE overrun prevention is the only time the gun can get a third shot off.


Scott

 

[Sparafucil3]

Because the Gun, like any ordinance can only fire if the crew is not marked with a first fire/ final fire counter and of course barring overruns and what not IE overrun prevention is the only time the gun can get a third shot off.


Scott

C 5.6 Case F; Intensive Fire: Intensive Fire is available only to Guns (not SW), and can be used only if the crew of the Gun is not pinned, shocked, or stunned. An Intensive Firing Gun automatically gains one (and only one [EXC: OVR Prevention; 5.64]) additional shot during that Player Turn. Intensive Fire cannot be used during the AFPh except by an Opportunity Firer. A Gun cannot use Inetnsive Fire until it has already exhausted its normal ROF. A Gun which has Intensive Fired replaces its fire phase counter with an Intensive Fire counter.

According to this you can IF the gun as long as the manning crew is not pinned, shocked, or stunned. By your way of reasoning, a crew would never be able to Intensive Fire in the Defensive Fire Phase as once they lost rate they would be marked First Fired and not allowed to shoot. Am I missing something here? Thanks -- jim

 

[Gunner Scott]

C 5.6 Case F; Intensive Fire: Intensive Fire is available only to Guns (not SW), and can be used only if the crew of the Gun is not pinned, shocked, or stunned. An Intensive Firing Gun automatically gains one (and only one [EXC: OVR Prevention; 5.64]) additional shot during that Player Turn. Intensive Fire cannot be used during the AFPh except by an Opportunity Firer. A Gun cannot use Inetnsive Fire until it has already exhausted its normal ROF. A Gun which has Intensive Fired replaces its fire phase counter with an Intensive Fire counter.

According to this you can IF the gun as long as the manning crew is not pinned, shocked, or stunned. By your way of reasoning, a crew would never be able to Intensive Fire in the Defensive Fire Phase as once they lost rate they would be marked First Fired and not allowed to shoot. Am I missing something here? Thanks -- jim

Your right and I suck at this game.


Scott

 

[Sparafucil3]

Your right and I suck at this game.


Scott

No worries. I am too new to this game to feel very comfortable with all the little exceptions littered through out the rule book. I was more worried about being wrong then being right. I have a game scheduled this weekend and I think I will need all the shots I can get. --jim

 

[Robin Reeve]

Why wouldn't the gun be able to Intensive Fire?

It can be better not to IF, and not to risk breakdown and, perhaps more important, risk to miss the TH DR and have no effect on the enemy. A 2FP SFF shot at -2DRM can be much more profitable than IF.
Also note that, if the Gun is in a building or woods, its CA is fixed at first shot and cannot swing to fire at a sneaking enemy moving out of that fixed CA, so the crew may not have too much other options than SFF (and it will loose acquisition BTW)...

 

[Ole Boe]

Good answer Robin - I think you nailed all the reasons for using SFF with the crew instead of IF with the Gun.

One more possible reason though - isn't there some big Guns that have "No IF"?

 

[GVL]

Good answer Robin - I think you nailed all the reasons for using SFF with the crew instead of IF with the Gun.

One more possible reason though - isn't there some big Guns that have "No IF"?

Can the crew SFF first and then ( if they missed the shot)IF with the Gun?

 

[Reepicheep]

Can the crew SFF first and then ( if they missed the shot)IF with the Gun?

I would say yes, but only if more than 1MF was spent by the ADJACENT enemy unit.

 

[Ole Boe]

I would say yes, but only if more than 1MF was spent by the ADJACENT enemy unit.

I agree with you - if we're following the "spirit" of the rules (which I of course think is a good thing to do), but I'm afraid that we once again stumbled into an ambigious part of A7/A8 which probably says something else than how everyone plays.

The rules: A8.14 says: "A unit that survives a Defensive First Fire attack ... can be fired on again in that same Location ... but only by different attackers or if it expended at least two MF/MP in that Location (see 9.2)."

The "by different attackers" clause is the one that creates problems.

If the Gun and its crew are considered the same attacker, then the SFF on the same MP is illegal. That seems fine, but if that were true, then a squad manning a mortar would not be able to use both the mortar and Inherent FP on the same MF, and a German squad would not be able to make two PF checks on the same MP.

So it looks to me like two different weapons are considered "different attackers" even when used by the same unit. That means that there is no rule prohibiting a crew from firing its Gun as DFF and Inherent FP as SFF on the same MF. The same goes for a HS/Crew manning a mortar.

Note that A7.55 (Mandatory FG) will make it illegal to do so with non-ordnance weapons though, so a Japanese crew cannot both fire its MG and Inherent FP on the same MF.


The solution would be to treat Inherent FP and all SW/Guns as having fired on a MF/MP for the purposes of A8.14 (and A8.1, which fixes some other problems with A8) when the manning unit uses its full capacity as per A7.351-.352. That would prevent the crew from SFF'ing its Inherent FP on the same MF it fires its Gun, since the Inherent FP will be considered fired as DFF on that same MF.

Puh! :drink:

 

[klasmalmstrom]

If the crew uses its inherent FP as SFF then it and the Gun it possesses would be marked with a Final Fire counter, wouldn't it ?

And can a Gun marked with a Final Fire counter use Intensive Fire ?

 

[Ole Boe]

If the crew uses its inherent FP as SFF then it and the Gun it possesses would be marked with a Final Fire counter, wouldn't it ?

Yes - A8.3 (J6 errata): "If a unit, or any SW/Gun it possesses, uses Subsequent First Fire (or Intensive Fire) then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter."

And can a Gun marked with a Final Fire counter use Intensive Fire ?

No - with the exception of OVR Prevention.

 

[Robin Reeve]

If the crew uses its inherent FP as SFF then it and the Gun it possesses would be marked with a Final Fire counter, wouldn't it ?
And can a Gun marked with a Final Fire counter use Intensive Fire ?

I also thought not, but the rule doesn't seem to forbid it...
5.6 Case F; Intensive Fire: Intensive Fire is available only to Guns (not SW), and can be used only if the crew of the Gun is not pinned, shocked, or stunned. An Intensive Firing Gun automatically gains one (and only one [EXC: OVR Prevention; 5.64]) additional shot during that Player Turn. Intensive Fire cannot be used during the AFPh except by an Opportunity Firer. A Gun cannot use Intensive Fire until it has already exhausted its normal ROF. A Gun which has Intensive Fired replaces its fire phase counter with an Intensive Fire counter.

 

[Ole Boe]

I also thought not, but the rule doesn't seem to forbid it...

I was a bit too fast in my previous answer. I find it strange too that C5.6 doesn't forbid it.

I think though, that A7.35 and A8.3 in combination prevents this.

A7.352-.353 effectively tell us that a HS/crew can fire either its Inherent FP or a SW/Gun as SFF, but that the use of one prevents the other, and I think A8.3 is close enough to saying that Intensive Fire during the enemy MPh is equal to using SFF for this to prevent SFF and IF for a crew.

It's one more A7/A8 rule that surprises me by not being clearly written though (it seems like we find one every other day)...

 

[da priest]

..I find it strange too that C5.6 doesn't forbid it.

I think though, that A7.35 and A8.3 in combination prevents this....

Hmmm, the A rules by some interpretation might, possibly prevent, but C5.6 clearly allows it. Especially the line ..:"A Gun which has Intensive Fired replaces its fire phase counter with an Intensive Fire counter."..doesn't say "First Fired counter", but "fire phase counter".

 

[Fred Ingram]

I was a bit too fast in my previous answer. I find it strange too that C5.6 doesn't forbid it.

I think though, that A7.35 and A8.3 in combination prevents this.

A7.352-.353 effectively tell us that a HS/crew can fire either its Inherent FP or a SW/Gun as SFF, but that the use of one prevents the other, and I think A8.3 is close enough to saying that Intensive Fire during the enemy MPh is equal to using SFF for this to prevent SFF and IF for a crew.

It's one more A7/A8 rule that surprises me by not being clearly written though (it seems like we find one every other day)...

I was Dave's opponent; which caused him to ask the question. He was confused by just the problems you are mentioning with the A7 & A8 rules sections, plus the fact that it was a crew who had exhausted rate of fire. He is OK with it now. Just in the 15+ years of him playing, no one ever tried to SFF a crew after losing rate of fire (that he could recal).

He was so confident there was an explicit rule preventing the SFF from a crew.

By the way, that squad with the FT that ran up next to the crew was in open ground. I took the shot and I rolled a 3 for a KIA. He was desperately trying to clear the gun since he had 5 tanks ready to go through the gap on the next turn. The gun had a ROF 2 - so he did not want to risk me having a ROF tear later on. Oh well, he now has to take that risk anyway.

I love this game