Fires and perimeters in RO

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Are factories that blaze controlled by anyone?

If no then no perimeter can include them , correct ?
 

jrv

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All strategic locations are always controlled in RB/RO [RF11.6051]. If the fire started accidentally, control changes per A26.161. If the fire was kindled, control changes per A26.16.

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That does not seem fair. So the German goes to the trouble to set some factory area on fire ( by OBA) but because of the fire
he cannot get around it- thus he has just given the Russians control of the area with now in a gutted condition.!!!

Isn't it more realistic that those big flames that forces BOTH sides to exit the area ( unless they want to be the next BBQ)
become not controlled by anyone. The metal being still too hot.

The A rule is for smaller games IMO where massive fires do NOT occur.

That really messed up RO
.... what's the point of Germans starting fires??????

I guess they just use OBA behind them as "normal" attacks using do. NOT
 

bendizoid

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Sorry I burned your factory down with that 150mm artillary, it was an accident.
 
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The question asks why would a burning fire be owned by anyone.

It is very important.. So this was started by a Neb last scenario and has kept getting bigger.

This was " accidental" so why would it be controlled by the Russians. Should it be not "controlled" by anyone - similar to isolated locations - similar to a big bomb leaving a big hole. The German's should get some "return" for their handiwork. This is also true for the Russian with their katy..

I don't think the A rule factors in what is the equivalent of strategic bombing. That is my first point.


10298

The second point is it makes a mockery of military strategy.


26.161 A player is not held responsible for Fires started randomly while firing (e.g., with HE, FT, MOL, WP, or vs Huts [G5.6] or by causing a Burning Wreck), or for Fires existing at the start of play. An accidentally-started Flame counter does not affect Control in any way, but such Blaze counters may: if the ground level Location(s) of one or more adjacent hexes are unenterable by both sides because of such Blaze counter(s), the side that Controls a majority of hexes adjacent to this area also gains Control of all hexes of this area. Any Location that is unenterable due to such a Blaze or Rubble is Controlled by the side Controlling its hex. Control of a building that is unenterable due to such a Blaze is gained by the side Controlling all of the building hexes per the first part of this rule. The Locations/hexes/buildings must be unenterable by all Ground units of both sides for this rule to apply.

So, Stula have just blasted the shit out of a whole area YET the enemy gain control of the area..

Can you see the problem ????

Thirdly, if the German's can draw a perimeter down the hexline behind the first factory - and thus enclose it in their perimeter -
does this then grant " control" to the German's ?

In all cases above it seems totally obvious that NO side would control any such hexes...
 

jrv

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I am wondering if you are skipping over step O11.609 in the RePh. Blazes mostly go out between scenarios. Note that if there is a blaze in any one Location, the entire building is Gutted/rubbled [11.6094-.6095].

There are some kinds of fire that continue between CG dates. Wreck blazes that have not converted their flammable hex to blaze do spread to their flammable hex next game [O11.6091]. Flame counters are then converted to blaze and additional blaze counters are placed in flammable terrain adjacent as long as they are not in gutted buildings [11.6096]. If the non-Factory building rubbled due to blaze, any flames fall to the ground and are converted in this step.

Factories & buildings that become gutted [11.6094] go out in the RePh and can never burn again (until rubbled) [10.24]. They are one and done. Looking at your picture I am seeing a lot of blazing factories that I suspect shouldn't be blazing. Also for gutted buildings/factories you only need one gutted counter for the entire building. You don't have to mark each hex, as "gutted" applies to the entire building.

JR
 
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jrv

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In all cases above it seems totally obvious that NO side would control any such hexes...
The rules of ASL are not laws of physics. They are game rules, and you play by them. If the rules say all strategic locations are always controlled by one side or the other, then they always are. End of story.

JR
 
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You correctly mention buildings are gutted/ rubbled.

Factories as I have shown above (the blaze part) continue to burn. Simply flame - blaze - flame A 2,2 becomes blaze A 2,2 becomes flame AB 1,2 AB 2,2 etc the is a mathematical progression if all locations are burnable terrain.

That is why there is so many blazes, the FACTORY fires do not go "out" as in buildings.

As per the rules part I don't think any CG was really part of the idea. It is obvious that a building (or two) surrounded by other buildings in friendly areas would most likely be part of the friendly area. However strategic bombing is very unlikely to be controlled by anyone. Huge fires thus presented can be considered the same as this.

Don't you think?

Given the rules that exist the German's need only to have more units adjacent to the fire - surrounding it if you will -
in the example above they they also controlled the left had side of the factory on the LHS thus enclosing it in their perimeter
even though the Russian controlled the remainder. THUS an Ace beats a King and the factory thus becomes part of the German perimeter.

This is due to the fact that there are no strategic locations next to this factory nor Russian units. Thus a German blocking detachment - a wall of units so that no R perimeter could be gleaned from it-

This is following ASL rules mind you, it all just seems so wrong...
 

jrv

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You correctly mention buildings are gutted/ rubbled.

Factories as I have shown above (the blaze part) continue to burn. Simply flame - blaze - flame A 2,2 becomes blaze A 2,2 becomes flame AB 1,2 AB 2,2 etc the is a mathematical progression if all locations are burnable terrain.

That is why there is so many blazes, the FACTORY fires do not go "out" as in buildings.
Per O11.609, "Each Location currently marked with a Blaze (not Flame) counter is considered fully consumed by the fire. Players must remove each Blaze counter and make the appropriate terrain alterations." This is regardless of terrain type. At the end of O11.609 all blazes have been removed from the map (although for convenience it is often easier to completely handle each building/hex one at a time rather than trying to remember where all the blazes were). There may still be flames on the map.

The blaze terrain alteration for a factory is in O11.6095, "A Factory ... is not reduced to rubble; rather, place a Gutted marker in any hex of it (O5.5) or use one of the provided overlays." Because "Gutted" applies to the building/factory in its entirety, you only need one Gutted marker.

If there were any flames in gutted factory locations at CG date end, per O11.6096, "each Flame in a now-gutted, non-rubble Location is removed".

To summarize, if any Location of a factory has a blaze in it, in O11.609ff it is marked Gutted and all flames/blazes are removed. It may never catch fire again except in rubbled hexes, which technically are no longer part of the building.

If the only fire in a particular factory was flame counters (i.e. there were no blaze counters in that factory at the end of the CG date), the flame would spread to blazes in O11.6096 and the factory would be gutted at the end of the next CG date played.

JR
 
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Eagle4ty

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I believe jrv has pointed you to the pertinent rules whereas 11.6095 is for Factories, it does not say Factory hex, but Factory. The same is true for 11.6094 Buildings, NOT building hexes. Per the attached graphic you have supplied it seems as if you misunderstand this basic principal as you have 3 gutted markers in a single building where a single one would suffice. Also you have gutted markers in Factories with blaze/Flame counters in them as well. UNLESS those hexes Factory had been reduced to rubble, there is no way for them to again catch fire and there should never be a Gutted marker in a non-rubbled location of Building/Factory where there are Flame/Blaze counters or the opposite as well. The problem is not one of the rules but your interpretation. If it was meant to say Hex/Location the rule would have said as much.
 

jrv

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Factories are buildings...
In the blaze terrain alteration rules non-factory buildings are covered in O11.6094 and factory buildings are covered in O11.6095, so they are treated differently for terrain alteration. But for extinguishing blazes (O11.609) all terrain (building or not) is treated the same: blazes are removed.

JR
 
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