Firelane hits a Banzai charge and tank exiting a ford on a flooded stream

JoeArthur

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Gents,

Played White Tigers the other day and two things came up:

1. Firelane hits a banzai charge. Roll to effect the target. The impulse has spent two movement factors. Does the firelane click in and effect the following units on the same shot? A roll for each seperate location that the firelane hits? Does it matter if they spent 2 MF - would it click in if they just spent one?

2. The stream is flooded in this scenario. There are two fords which take it down one to a deep stream when you use the fords. As the stream is flooded it is at level 0 so exiting the ford there is no elevation change so no bog check for a fully tracked AFV? Nor all those MP's for going up one level?

Many thanks for any help.
 

klasmalmstrom

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1. Firelane hits a banzai charge. Roll to effect the target. The impulse has spent two movement factors. Does the firelane click in and effect the following units on the same shot? A roll for each seperate location that the firelane hits? Does it matter if they spent 2 MF - would it click in if they just spent one?
A9.222:
"...When a Fire Lane is placed due to a First Fire attack vs a unit using some form of Impulse movement (13.62; 25.232; D14.2; E11.2; E11.52), its Fire Lane Residual FP immediately attacks all other elements of that Impulse currently in any Location(s) where that Residual FP now exists."

So all units that moved in the Impulse are attacked by the just-placed Fire Lane...new effects/IFT DR for each Location.
 

JoeArthur

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A9.222:
"...When a Fire Lane is placed due to a First Fire attack vs a unit using some form of Impulse movement (13.62; 25.232; D14.2; E11.2; E11.52), its Fire Lane Residual FP immediately attacks all other elements of that Impulse currently in any Location(s) where that Residual FP now exists."

So all units that moved in the Impulse are attacked by the just-placed Fire Lane...new effects/IFT DR for each Location.
Many thanks once again Klas - any ideas about the stream please?
 

Larry

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Start with B20.45 and 20.46 and end wit B20.8-.82. Same elevation, no bog check, etc. It looks like your conclusion is correct.
 

Doug Leslie

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Start with B20.45 and 20.46 and end wit B20.8-.82. Same elevation, no bog check, etc. It looks like your conclusion is correct.
Without the ford, the AFV couldn't enter the stream at all. The ford allows it to do so by treating the stream as deep. Seems to me that this means that it has to pay the normal additional MP for moving to a higher elevation but won't be subject to bog. The water level of the stream doesn't change the vehicle's elevation as non-amphibious tanks can't float. Its tracks are at the same elevation as if the stream were dry.
 

Larry

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I don't assume anything that isn't stated in the rule. A ford has a gentle slope. A ford is at the same level as the stream where it exists. A flooded stream is at level 0. The tank is at level 0.

Your point is well-taken and good. But it is a reality argument, not a rules argument. It does make good fodder for a Q&A.
 

Stewart

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Gents,
2. The stream is flooded in this scenario. There are two fords which take it down one to a deep stream when you use the fords. As the stream is flooded it is at level 0 so exiting the ford there is no elevation change so no bog check for a fully tracked AFV? Nor all those MP's for going up one level?

Many thanks for any help.
All vehicles leaving a stream hex via a higher elevation hexside are subject to Bog in that stream hex.

This is not the case here. No bog check needed.

Also,
20.82 Movement from a ford hex does not require a Bog DR even if the move is across a higher level hexside, but does require the normal additional MF/MP costs if moving to a higher elevation.
 

Larry

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Does a unit in a ford at level 0 moving to dry ground at level 0 move to higher ground? Logically, yes, the water is fast moving and 3 feet deep. Rules-wise, an affirmative answer is not clear. Ask Perry.
 

Doug Leslie

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I think that it is possible up to a point to read the rules as written so that they don't conflict with reality.

20.4 DEPTH: The depth of water in a stream is the only thing which distinguishes it from a gully hex.

Therefore the water level does not change the fact that the stream is a gully and the stream bed (and therefore any ford) is at level -1.

20.46 VEHICLES: Vehicles transit a stream hex as if it were a gully, regardless of water depth [EXC: Flooded].

The EXC simply recognises that vehicles can't traverse a flooded stream at all.

20.8 FORDS: A ford represents an area within a stream or gully hex where the Depression's sides have a gentler slope and the streambed itself is level and lies near the surface, but the ford is still at the same elevation as that stream hex, and is treated as a stream/gully hex except as amended below.

A ford in a flooded stream is treated as if the water level were deep. It is still however at the same level as the stream bed which is -1. Only the water in the stream/gully is at level 0.

Then however we run into this:

20.82 Movement from a ford hex does not require a Bog DR even if the move is across a higher level hexside, but does require the normal additional MF/MP costs if moving to a higher elevation.

What does "even if the move is across a higher level hexside" imply other than that there might be a situation where exiting a ford across a non-depression hexside would be into a same level hex? It could be referring to movement into another stream hex but the issue of bog would never arise in that event. That just leaves exiting a ford hex in a flooded stream into a non-stream hex.

I think that Larry's original post is probably correct. Crazy as it might seem, a literal reading of the rules means that vehicles entering a ford hex don't actually touch the stream bed but acquire the ability to float.
 

Stewart

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IF you fire on a unit in a flooded stream, what level are they at?
 

Stewart

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Does a unit in a ford at level 0 moving to dry ground at level 0 move to higher ground? Logically, yes, the water is fast moving and 3 feet deep. Rules-wise, an affirmative answer is not clear. Ask Perry.
How is a unit moving from level 0 to level 0 moving to higher ground? Uh wtf am i missing here.
 

Doug Leslie

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IF you fire on a unit in a flooded stream, what level are they at?
If they are infantry, they just drowned. If they can swim, they are level 0. If it is a vehicle, it just sank from view but if it is amphibious it is at level 0.
 

Doug Leslie

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How is a unit moving from level 0 to level 0 moving to higher ground? Uh wtf am i missing here.
The issue is that a non-amphibious vehicle should not logically be considered to be at level 0 for movement purposes but in a deep stream. Its tracks are still in contact with the ford which is at the same level as the stream bed. If it is considered to be in a deep stream, what is keeping the water in? Has to be the banks of stream, does it not?
The rulebook doesn't necessarily recognise this however.
 

JoeArthur

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Following question sent 2.10.2021

Hi,

A question raised in a Gamesquad thread could not be answered. What is Perry's opinion please?

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/firelane-hits-a-banzai-charge-and-tank-exiting-a-ford-on-a-flooded-stream.164200/

In the scenario ASL159 White Tigers the stream is flooded. There are two fords which when used take it down one to a deep stream. As the stream is flooded it is at level 0 - therefore upon exiting the ford there is no elevation change MP expenditure and no bog check for a fully tracked AFV?

Many thanks for any help.
 
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