Fire Limitations after Street Fighting

[fanatic+1]

A squad with mmg declares a street fighting attempt at a vehicle in bypass of its hex. If it destroys the vehicle is it still marked with a CC counter per D7.21? Does this prohibit non-cc reaction fire attacks? What if the vehicle is in an eligible adjacent road hex?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A squad with mmg declares a street fighting attempt at a vehicle in bypass of its hex. If it destroys the vehicle is it still marked with a CC counter per D7.21?...

Does not look like it does....
D7.21:
"...After completing its attack, that DEFENDER and all of its possessed SW (including those Inherent) and Guns are marked with a CC counter, if the vehicle has survived, to prohibit non-CC Reaction Fire attacks, and also with a First or Final Fire counter as appropriate for that attack...."

I believe the purple text regulate whether the red text comes into play.

On the other hand, had it been marked with a CC counter that would only mean it could not performa Non-CC RF attack vs an OVRing vehicle.

 

[fanatic+1]

If the vehicle was attacked in an eligible adjacent road hex and survives and the squad returned to its adjacent building hex, is the squad still marked with a cc counter and thereby limited in its fire options?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think is regulated by D7.21 as well. But being marked by a CC counter does not really limtits one fire options that much.

 

[fanatic+1]

I thought it prohibit non-CC reaction fire attacks per D7.21?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I thought it prohibit non-CC reaction fire attacks per D7.21?

Yes, but that type of attack does not happen very often anyway - it can only by used vs a vehicle that is OVRing you, and if you are in a building that does not happen very often.

 

[fanatic+1]

Ahh...I thought it meant it prohibited all attacks (including DFF, FF or FPF) that are not CC reaction fire attacks. You are saying it instead prohibits all reaction fire attacks that are not CC?

 

[Vinnie]

I asked this same question a couple of years ago.
It seems that your fire options are not limited by the CC counter except as they relate the reaction fire. You CC the vehicle and are marked CC and first fire. You can then final fire normally unless making a reaction fire attack whereupon you may onky opt for CC.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Ahh...I thought it meant it prohibited all attacks (including DFF, FF or FPF) that are not CC reaction fire attacks. You are saying it instead prohibits all reaction fire attacks that are not CC?

Yes, it only prevents you from making a "Non-CC Reaction Fire" attack - per D7.22:
"Each unbroken DEFENDER unit in an OVR Location and not beneath a CC/Melee counter may conduct Non-CC Reaction Fire within..."

 

[fanatic+1]

Thanks!

 

[Pyth]

Something that seems less clear in this is how a possessed SW should be marked.

"...After completing its attack, that DEFENDER and all of its possessed SW (including those Inherent) and Guns are marked with a CC counter, if the vehicle has survived, to prohibit non-CC Reaction Fire attacks, and also with a First or Final Fire counter as appropriate for that attack...."

A squad with a BAZ streetfights for it's first action of the phase -- clearly it and the SW are marked with a cc counter, but is the squad also marked first fire/inherent (retaining an unrestricted shot with the BAZ) or is it marked as having first fired/inherent + SW capability? I think the bolding given above indicates that inherent + sw are fully first fired, but I see plenty of room for disagreement.. Greybeards, opine please.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...I think the bolding given above indicates that inherent + sw are fully first fired, but I see plenty of room for disagreement..

Both are marked.

Clear from the last paragraph of the D7.22 example:
"If the 4-4-7 possessed a SW such as an ATR and fired it when the tank entered E3, that squad could not then use Street Fighting CC Reaction Fire (since the ATR would be marked by a First Fire counter; 7.211). On the other hand, if the 4-4-7 conducted Street Fighting CC Reaction Fire in E3 first, its ATR would still be marked with a First Fire counter."

 

[Mister T]

One follow-up, if a MMC is saddled with heavy SWs that would normally prevent it from moving, can it still do street fighting?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

One follow-up, if a MMC is saddled with heavy SWs that would normally prevent it from moving, can it still do street fighting?

Yes. IIRC, there is even a Q&A that allows it while possessing a Gun (albeit I can't find that Q&A now).

Edit: I see now that even the rule mentions Gun.

"...However, Street Fighting CC Reaction Fire may not be attempted by a unit that is, and/or possesses a SW—(including Inherent)/Gun that is, already marked with a First/Final/Intensive/No Fire counter...."

 

[Mister T]

Thanks for the answer, however my question was not so much related to mobility restrictions due to fire status, it was more about mobility restrictions due to high portage (ie a MMC portaging much more than its IPC). Sorry for the unclear wording

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Thanks for the answer, however my question was not so much related to mobility restrictions due to fire status, it was more about mobility restrictions due to high portage (ie a MMC portaging much more than its IPC). Sorry for the unclear wording

Yes, I understood that, but I see no such restrictions in the D7.2XX rules, and if there were any such the rule I quoted would probably not have to mentioned Guns.

 

[Pyth]

Yes, I understood that, but I see no such restrictions in the D7.2XX rules, and if there were any such the rule I quoted would probably not have to mentioned Guns.

Is there a hole in the rules here? (I think there is). What is the status of SWs and Guns during streetfighting. The first example in the comprehensive close combat example has a leader and squad street-fighting an AFV on wire. Because of the wire they streetfight the AFV and must remain in the AFVs location... but what if they had an LMG/a 5PP Mortar/crewed a Gun? do they take them with them? or leave them unpossessed in the origination hex? ASL commonsense says they take the LMG with them, and unpossess the gun -- but I wish I wasn't making these rules up as I go along, is this addressed in the RB or a Q&A? -- and I don't know what to think about the 5PP Mortar.

 

[Hemaelstrom]

I will hazard the following opinion. Street Fighting as defined in A11.8 is an option initiated by a unit advancing into the qualifying AFV's Location. D7.211 demands that both units meet all requirements for CC Reaction Fire and Street Fighting, which implies that the attacking unit must be able to advance at the moment of attack (were it the corresponding APh), which it could not do if in possession of a Gun or otherwise carrying too much. D7.211 as worded suggests that a unit so encumbered may nevertheless have the option of using Street Fighting CC Reaction Fire. Noting that a unit may abandon possession during its own APh (A4.43), then a unit so encumbered would also have the option of abandoning SW/Guns before initiating regular Street Fighting, i.e. would meet the requirements for Street Fighting as long as heavy gear is left behind, as would a unit using it as CC Reaction Fire, as long as the SW/Guns that would otherwise prevent such an advance are abandoned in the originally occupied hex. I suggest there would need to be a subsequent Recovery attempt in a relevant phase if the unit returns there and wants their gear.
I know not everyone likes interpreting the rules quite so freely, but COWTRA will only take you so far (in spite of its mention in the hallowed first edition introduction), as the rules are rich enough and sometimes ambiguous enough to encourage or even necessitate interpretation.
Perry can't be everywhere at once... more's the pity

 

[von Marwitz]

I will hazard the following opinion. Street Fighting as defined in A11.8 is an option initiated by a unit advancing into the qualifying AFV's Location. D7.211 demands that both units meet all requirements for CC Reaction Fire and Street Fighting, which implies that the attacking unit must be able to advance at the moment of attack (were it the corresponding APh), which it could not do if in possession of a Gun or otherwise carrying too much. D7.211 as worded suggests that a unit so encumbered may nevertheless have the option of using Street Fighting CC Reaction Fire. Noting that a unit may abandon possession during its own APh (A4.43), then a unit so encumbered would also have the option of abandoning SW/Guns before initiating regular Street Fighting, i.e. would meet the requirements for Street Fighting as long as heavy gear is left behind, as would a unit using it as CC Reaction Fire, as long as the SW/Guns that would otherwise prevent such an advance are abandoned in the originally occupied hex. I suggest there would need to be a subsequent Recovery attempt in a relevant phase if the unit returns there and wants their gear.
I know not everyone likes interpreting the rules quite so freely, but COWTRA will only take you so far (in spite of its mention in the hallowed first edition introduction), as the rules are rich enough and sometimes ambiguous enough to encourage or even necessitate interpretation.
Perry can't be everywhere at once... more's the pity

As nowhere is written that a recovery attempt is required in that situation, I see no reason to mandate one. COWTRA will take you that far IMHO.

von Marwitz

 

[Hemaelstrom]

Perhaps i was letting my imagination get the best of me, but i couldn't see an alternative having already suggested that abandonment would be necessary. At least not one that didn't trample the spirit of the rules, if one believes in such a thing...