Fire into hex with friendly infantry

[igycrctl]

I was playing the Guards Counterattack yesterday and this situation came up: a berserk German makes it into the hex with the defending Russian, who will use TPBF as SFF. Adjacent (or should it be ADJACENT) are two other Russian infantry who also want to fire on the German with SFF, now using PBF. The question is: can the adjacent defenders fire into the hex with the berserk German and the defending Russian? If yes (and I’m pretty sure the answer is yes) does that fire impact the Russian infantry?

Thanks in advance for the info.

 

[Paul John]

I was playing the Guards Counterattack yesterday and this situation came up: a berserk German makes it into the hex with the defending Russian, who will use TPBF as SFF. Adjacent (or should it be ADJACENT) are two other Russian infantry who also want to fire on the German with SFF, now using PBF. The question is: can the adjacent defenders fire into the hex with the berserk German and the defending Russian? If yes (and I’m pretty sure the answer is yes) does that fire impact the Russian infantry?

Thanks in advance for the info.

They can always fire into that hex with both sides (assuming they could have fired at the berserkers alone). If they fire during movement, the attack only affects the moving units, so your defenders are safe (just like if there were other Germans in there who were not moving). If they fire in final fire or later, everyone is affected. Hopefully I am playing this right!

 

[von Marwitz]

The German Berserkers and the Russian infantry are not yet locked in Melee. This means that any attacks vs. the Berserkers hit only the Berserkers and not the Russians that are in the same hex.

Both, German Berserkers and Russian infantry would only be hit once they are locked in Melee, i.e. if both units survive the first CCPh. Note, though, that the Russians could voluntarily break to rout away and thus escape the German Berserkers during the Rout Phase if this seems advantageous.

von Marwitz

 

[igycrctl]

So simple, so obvious! Clearly, this is the movement phase. Only moving units can be fired upon! This is exactly how we played it. Glad to know we did the right thing, even if we weren’t sure why we did it that way.

 

[jrv]

So simple, so obvious! Clearly, this is the movement phase. Only moving units can be fired upon! This is exactly how we played it. Glad to know we did the right thing, even if we weren’t sure why we did it that way.

This is right enough for the situation, but not necessarily the best understanding for the general case. When friendly and enemy units are in the same Location, regardless of phase friendly units are affected by friendly fire only if the friendly units are in melee, or if the type of fire affects both friendly and enemy units. Area Target Type fire affects both friendly and enemy units, so in that case it would affect friendly units during the DFPh (for example). It would not affect non-moving units during the MPh by the reason you give. This same would apply to OBA. But during the DFPh friendly units could fire into the Location without affecting the friendly unit in the Location using anything but ATT & OBA (inherent FP, MGs, infantry target type, vehicle target type, LATW table, etc.) because the friendly unit and the berserk enemy unit were not in Melee.

JR

 

[Jazz]

If they fire in final fire or later, everyone is affected. Hopefully I am playing this right!

Alas, you have been playing it incorrectly.

The only time your direct fire affects a friendly unit is if they are locked in melee with an enemy unit....

Of course, OBA hits everybody in the blast area....indeed it is a bit worse when being hit by friendly OBA.

 

[jrv]

Area Target Type also affects friendly units if used during a fire phase (i.e. not during the MPh).

JR

 

[igycrctl]

Alas, you have been playing it incorrectly.

The only time your direct fire affects a friendly unit is if they are locked in melee with an enemy unit....

Of course, OBA hits everybody in the blast area....indeed it is a bit worse when being hit by friendly OBA.

Can you please provide the appropriate rules section so I can show it to my opponent. Thanks.

 

[jrv]

A7.4, in particular "the outcome of such fire affecting all those enemy (or Melee) units in the target Location." There are a lot more ifs, ands, and buts, so going through the rest of the details will be instructive. As I have said, ATT & OBA are not as careful as other types of fire.

JR

 

[bendizoid]

Of course, OBA hits everybody in the blast area....indeed it is a bit worse when being hit by friendly OBA.

Except the observer. That's nice to know, saved my bacon once.

 

[jrv]

Except the observer. That's nice to know, saved my bacon once.

Friendly OBA hits the friendly Observer. It does not lower the ML of the friendly Observer [C1.54]. Not much solace when a CH KIAs the Observer.

JR

 

[Paul John]

Alas, you have been playing it incorrectly.

Once Again! Glad to be corrected!

 

[Jazz]

Once Again! Glad to be corrected!

You picked the right game as we are ALL getting constantly corrected.....

 

[Ray Woloszyn]

Assuming a defender kept his concealment by not attacking after an enemy advance and CC attack, the following prep fire into the same hex would also not affect the concealed unit since no melee resulted.

 

[jrv]

The defender would have to both not attack and not be reduced when attacked. Being CR'd is concealment loss. The defender doesn't have complete control over whether a Melee forms when attempting to retain concealment by not attacking. The defender may lose concealment anyway.

JR

 

[Ray Woloszyn]

The defender would have to both not attack and not be reduced when attacked. Being CR'd is concealment loss. The defender doesn't have complete control over whether a Melee forms when attempting to retain concealment by not attacking. The defender may lose concealment anyway.

JR

Good clarification of how to retain concealment in a CC situation.