Falling rubble from a factory hex

Bjoernar

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Hello


A question arised last evening when my brave russian factory defenders in RB III got hit right on by two Nebelwerfers.

Do a roofless rubbled factory hex induce falling rubble?

Do a regular factory hex?

To have the chance for falling rubble a higher level need to have been rubbled. Do the factories have this higher level the rules speak about? We are of course aware that the height of the factories should indicate this but there are no levels to "stand on" between ground level and the roof (if there are one).





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Bjørnar
 

Stacks

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The answer is NO (no falling rubble in either case)

sorry that I cannot give any rule #

regards Melvin
 

Larry

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The more interesting point is not the answer, but "why."

B24.12
Whenever an upper level building hex is rubbled by any means, there is a chance that the rubble will fall into an adjacent hex.
The question would then be whether a factory has an upper level ... not an upper level location. Other relevant rules:

B23.74
A Factory is a 2 1/2 level LOS obstacle if it has a printed stairwell, or a 1 1/2 level LOS obstacle if it does not. In either case, it has no upper level floors - all occupants are at ground level [EXC: rooftops; 23.8].

B23.743
23.743 FACTORY RUBBLE: A rubbled Factory hex, although no longer a building hex, is still a part of the Factory [EXC: it does not hinder LOS over (B.4) it]. Normal rubble rules (24.) apply. Movement/fire from such a hex into the Factory is treated as coming from a Factory Location. A ground-level Location of a Factory adjacent to a rubble hex of that Factory has a + 1 TEM for attacks from outside the Factory provided the LOS is over (B.4) the rubble and crosses the building depiction while entering the target Factory Location.

B23.8
Rooftops are treated the same as another building floor level at the next higher half-level elevation except as amended below.

If we accept that the factory, whether roofless or not, contains an upper level, can a gun fire at such quasi-location? For example, a gun two hexes behind a wall without LOS to a ground level location of a factory, could that gun fire at the 1st or 2nd level of the factory and cause it to rubble. If it did cause it to rubble, why would it not cause falling rubble?

...
 

Bjoernar

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Hi


You a completely right that it is interesting to know why, buts that's where the problems starts. B24.12 should have been written differently if it meant that an upper level location is different from an upper level. I think that "an upper level" is synonymous with "an upper level location".


Bjørnar
 

Larry

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The phrase "upper level location" is used twice that I could find in a quick search of Chapter B. It appears in 23.422 and 37.1. The phrase "upper level" appears more frequently.

I don't think that the two are synonymous. Rather, "upper level" represents a broader range of physical space that contains all "upper level locations." The converse is not true. I.e. all "upper levels" are not "upper level locations" but all "upper level locations" are "upper levels."
 

FrankH.

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Perry Said

Larry said:
The phrase "upper level location" is used twice that I could find in a quick search of Chapter B. It appears in 23.422 and 37.1. The phrase "upper level" appears more frequently.

I don't think that the two are synonymous. Rather, "upper level" represents a broader range of physical space that contains all "upper level locations." The converse is not true. I.e. all "upper levels" are not "upper level locations" but all "upper level locations" are "upper levels."
I asked the question a few years ago to Perry and he said no.

Rule:B23.74, B23.86, B24.11, B24.12, B25.66, O5.46

Question: Do intermediate vertical levels of a factory exist for the purposes of:

1) random selection of the rubble creation location in multiple-level buildings,

2) the +1 drm for falling rubble for each non-rooftop building level above ground level which was rubbled?

3) What location, if any, is affected (and becomes rubble) if a playable rooftop location in a factory is rubbled by HE attacks?

4) Is a rooftop a level for the purposes of random selection of rubble creation by HE area fire or OBA or by Fire Collapse?

5) Is falling rubble possible from a factory rooftop that is rubbled?

6) Does a RB roofless factory hex have a rooftop location for the purposes of rubble creation in that location?


1) No (factories don't have multiple levels; B23.74).
2) No.
3) Ground level (B23.86).
4) No.
5) No (see #1).
6) No.

....Perry
MMP

FH Note: Looks like I failed to quote rule O.4C in my initial question as this contributed to my confustion.

See also B23.86, last sentance

"For HE attacks vs. a playable rooftop Location, check for rubble instead in the Location beneath the rooftop."

Regards

Frank
 

Larry

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At least Perry was kind enough to permit a peek into his thinking, i.e. factories do not have multiple levels.

That is contrary to its status as a 2 1/2 or 1 1/2 level obstacle. While it may not have locations, it does have levels. I assume that in the absence of a playable rooftop that Perry would rule that the top of a factory could not be targeted by ordnance that did not have LOS to the base level. While this makes sense from a simulation perspective, it is not what the rules say.

Having been disabused of my reading of the rules, there is no falling rubble from factories. :whist:
 

Bjoernar

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Hi


Nice that there was already a Perry said on the topic somewhere out there that settled this.



Bjørnar.
 

daniel zucker

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Factory Rubble

I was just looking through the RB rules for Factories ( I’m trying to figure out how the hell to get to the roof) and there is a sentence in there that says that factories CAN become Rubble, even roofless ones.

Daneil
PS hear it is O5.46 & O5.52 :)
 

Fred Ingram

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daniel zucker said:
I was just looking through the RB rules for Factories ( I’m trying to figure out how the hell to get to the roof) and there is a sentence in there that says that factories CAN become Rubble, even roofless ones.

Daneil
PS hear it is O5.46 & O5.52 :)
That is probably ture, but FALLING rubble is not possible (which was the original question).

Ie, the hex rubbles into itself, does not tip over into an adjacent hex
 
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