Failed VCA Change-'?' Loss

volgaG68

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The Russians have moved and it is now the SS DFPh. An SS Concealed NT (JgPz) AFV sits in a woods hex. He declares himself to fire at a Russian AFV outside of his VCA, necessitating a Bog-risking VCA check to do so. He fails the Bog Check with a 5,6 DR. Does he lose Concealment?

He never fired. He never changed VCA. He never spent a Start MP. As near as I can decipher it falls in the catch-all category of "any other action" on the Concealment Loss/Gain Table, but he never performed an action. He attempted to, but never succeeded. Technically, he didn't 'do' anything. Or, would this fall under the same rationale as a Concealed Gun/AFV attempting to fire Special Ammo, not having it, and therefore not losing Concealment due to 'not have fired at all'?

I'm likely missing something in the RB, but it's been a long day.....
 

Mister T

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NRBH, but i would be inclined to say he lose concealment. Although he failed to do it, he started an action, so that would qualify as concealment-loss. It's different from firing special ammo IMO because the "no action" in case of rolling >depletion number is explicitely covered in the rules. And it's not the case here, at least to my knowledge.
 

volgaG68

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Although he failed to do it, he started an action, so that would qualify as concealment-loss.
I agree, the action was declared even if it was not carried through to fruition.
 

Pyth

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I tend to think anything with a roll is definitively an action unless specifically called out as a non-action in the RB like ammo depletion (are there other non-event DR's? I think there are but I can't think of them off-hand) ... a leader who attempts to rally his men has undertaken a concealment-loss action whether or not the rally succeeds, unsuccessful entrenching is a concealment loss event, so a successful die roll is not somehow required for concealment loss action. I think the ultimate non-event concealment loss is that being marked for OPP fire loses concealment whether the unit ever actually fires or not. ...

I hasten to add... this is my opinion, not knowledge... the OPs question is interesting. I mean the twist on the rules here is that the failed roll leads to the non-event of not turning... Is 'bogging' an action? LOL. I answered the question... then thought about it some more and I decided I don't know at all! Not the first time I've done that!
 
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Russ Isaia

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I don't know the answer but see a lot of reasons in the Table to wonder:

Concealment loss includes firing a Smoke Discharger "(but not just attempts to fire)."
Concealment loss includes when a vehicle "expends" any vehicular MP/MF (B), "engages" in any other action (C), or "changes CA" (D). None of these mention attempting to expend, engage or change. But they also don't literally say, as the Smoke Discharger entry does, "(not just attempts to fire)."
[Edited to change "attempts to use" to "attempts to fire": if you are going to put it in quotes, get it right!]

An then there is a Motion attempt during the opponent's MPh that fails (no concealment loss) and Mechanically Reliability DR during a Motion attempt (also no concealment loss). Per Q&A.

I would be inclined to say no concealment loss reasoning an other action is any action not otherwise addressed. Change in CA being addressed, failing to change CA is not an other action. Not wholy satisfying, however, and may even be wrong. I got to believe attempted but failed actions has been extensively discussed. Wish I knew how to effectively search the threads.
 

Perry

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Just brain-storming off the top of my NRBH head, but wouldn't Bogging be an action?
 

jrv

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Just brain-storming off the top of my NRBH head, but wouldn't Bogging be an action?
"Action" is one of those never-defined terms in ASL (along with "attack") that cause many headaches. I can't say that I have ever seen bogging be called an action in the ASLRB, but I have seen some surprising things called actions, so perhaps it is. Personally I would think that "making a bog check" is the action because I think of actions as "acts by the player." But it is never defined, and as I have said, some surprising (to me) things are called actions in the ASLRB.

JR
 

Russ Isaia

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Contrary to jrv, I think of actions at least for the concealment loss table as those of the represented units. To whom else can "it," in the Table, refer, e.g., "it/its PRC/its manning Infantry"?

But is "bogging" an action one engages in? "Hoping to becoming mired, I went bogging along the riverbank?" Not easy to use "bog" as something one does, i.e., an activity. Usually, it reflects a state or condition: "Dang, bogged down in work again."

However, I see that "bog" is used in the RB as an activity (if the roll is high enough, "the vehicle bogs," D8.21). So now I am on the side of concealment lost, until a better argument comes along of course.
 

Eagle4ty

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If one simply uses COWTRA, the AFV would retain concealment, however as others have stated my best guess is that a Q to Perry would be ruled otherwise.
 

Paul M. Weir

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While hoping for APCR might not involve any action other than a whispered "'APCR?', 'Nope, Sarge'", a Bog is a result is an unintended result of a physically attempted action. To Bog you must start the engine and attempt to move. You might only get 6 inches or barely twitched but you still have done something that could attract attention. So I see it as a "?" loss action.
 
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